ethical vs legal?

[Tsalagi]

Well, if ya can't beat 'em, join 'em! I'm mounting this baby in my treestand!!!

  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/2-talent_caliber.jpg

Yeah, buddy, wait til the deer get a load of this joker!

[SteveB]

Just trying to see if any facts can support statements like:

   

We'll probably see a number of injuries and fatalities from novice crossbow hunters who will:  

NY lists any hunting accidents involving the weapon seperately - thought some other may as well. If these type of accidents do indeed happen in any kind of significant numbers by new crossbow users, it would be an excellent fact to use against them in states not yet legal.

[Buckeye Trad Hunter]

Did a quick search and found this regarding crossbow related injuries in Ohio on the bowhunting.net website.

Myth:   Crossbows are unsafe.

Fact:   Quoting the previously mentioned letter from Michael J. Budzik, he also states:  

�Likewise, our statistics regarding hunter incidents (accidents) show very little difference between the two bow types.   Since 1976 we have had only 21 archery-related hunting incidents; 10 caused by longbow and 11 by crossbow.   Harvest data suggest that more people hunt with crossbows than with longbows in Ohio.�

There are some more facts vs. myths info on crossbows in this.  If anyone is interested here's the link to the page.

 http://www.bowhunting.net/artman/publish/TenPointCrossbows/Crossbow_Myths.shtml

[Ragnarok Forge]

SveinD,

I spent a year where it was both legal and considered ethical to beat your wife.  Even if it was illegal their religeon tells them it is ethical since it will help her follow the faith and it's requirements. Try telling an Iraqi or Afghani that he can't beat his wife when she is stepping out of what Islam says is her rightful place.  He will laugh at you and argue until he passes out that it is his right and his responsiblity to do so.

[droptine82]

Originally posted by Tsalagi:
Well, if ya can't beat 'em, join 'em! I'm mounting this baby in my treestand!!!

   http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/2-talent_caliber.jpg  

Yeah, buddy, wait til the deer get a load of this joker!

What does one of these babies cost?  It looks safe!

[Brian Krebs]

Droptine: the cost of that thing is minuscule compared to the cost of the castle you need to shoot at.


 The link... kindly provided by 'Buckeye Trad Hunter'  ...is a good one.

(for those that don't know a 'buckeye' is some kind of nut - I am from Ann Arbor and I know this for a fact!)   :D  

 I didn't really ~hate~ crossbow people until I read the link really well.
 There is the threat of 'ethics' being determined on the target range..

 Ethics isn't law.
 From Websters Dictionary:
 plural but sing or plural in constr : the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation
2
a : a set of moral principles : a theory or system of moral values —often used in plural but singular or plural in construction
b plural but sing or plural in constr : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group
c : a guiding philosophy
d : a consciousness of moral importance
3


   
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   Last Updated: Aug 6, 2010 - 1:11:39 PM
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Crossbow Myths
By Ten Point Crossbow
Aug 1, 2007 - 7:24:35 AM

Popular Crossbow Myths vs. the Facts
by Ten Point Crossbow

Myth:   A crossbow is not really a bow.

Fact:   When comparing a crossbow to a compound bow, shot with a release, the differences between them are:      

    * The crossbow trigger mechanism holds the draw for the shooter.
    * The bow assembly is positioned horizontally.
    * The crossbow is aimed like a rifle.

Both weapons fire an arrow equipped with a broadhead designed to penetrate an animal, causing it to hemorrhage to death.   The arrow coming from both weapons travels approximately the same distance, at approximately the same speed and energy, with approximately the same trajectory.    

Myth:   Crossbows make deer hunting too easy.

Fact:    The advantage a crossbow has over a conventional bow is that it holds the bow in the drawn, or ready to fire, position for the shooter.   While shooting a crossbow is generally easier to master than shooting a vertical bow, it cannot be argued that it is just plain easy.   The crossbow hunter must have the same woodsmanship ability and nearly all of the same shooting skills as the vertical bowhunter.

Myth:   Anyone can pick up a crossbow, practice for an hour, and be ready to head to the woods.

Fact:   Any experienced crossbow hunter will tell you that there are many ways to make a bad shot with a crossbow.   First, if a crossbow is not cocked perfectly straight, it will not shoot straight.   If the bowstring is pulled even 1/16th of an inch to the right or left of center, that difference can translate into a six-inch error at 20-yards.   Additionally, like any conventional bow shooter, a crossbow shooter must maintain a proper stance, control breathing, squeeze rather than �jerk� the trigger, steady the entire body, and follow through (watch the entire arrow flight through the sighting mechanism) after the release.   And finally, the crossbow hunter must also be a good judge of distance and be practiced at shooting the crossbow at varying distances between five and approximately 35 yards.

Myth:   A crossbow will shoot much faster and farther than compound bows.

Fact:   Under controlled conditions, a series of velocity and kinetic energy tests were performed on 2 compound bows with 70# peak draw weights (248 and 205 feet per second) and 2 crossbows with 150# peak draw weights (228 and 242 feet per second).   The bottom line was that both the compound bows and crossbows produced similar ballistic results.   That is, the crossbows did not shoot farther or faster than compound bows, as some people claim.   If fact, the arrow from the crossbow begins to lose velocity and energy slightly faster than the compound bow after 30 yards of flight because it shoots a lighter/shorter arrow.   However, that difference, while measurable, is slight and insignificant considering the typical whitetail deer shot is less than 30 yards.  

Myth:  Crossbows have the knockdown power of a firearm.

Fact:    Comparison tests have proven that there is a negligible ballistic difference between compound bows and crossbows.   These tests disprove the claims that crossbows perform like firearms.   In other words, a crossbow has no ballistic similarities to a firearm.  

Myth:   Crossbows shoot as flat as black powder rifles.

Fact:    Again, through comparison tests it has been proven that crossbows do not perform the same as firearms.   Crossbows typically start loosing velocity and energy at 30 yards compared to a black powder rifle which begins to loose velocity and energy at 100 yards or more.  

Myth:   Crossbow hunters are less experienced than conventional bowhunters, and will injure more deer.

Fact:   There is no evidence to support this claim. Crossbow hunters must apply the same basic skills and techniques as conventional bowhunters.   All hunters have to start somewhere.  Nobody enters the woods for the first time as an expert.   As a hunter gains more experience in shot placement, judging distance and overall hunting skill, they become far less likely to injure a deer.   In addition, one of the largest groups of new crossbow hunters are experienced bow hunters who can no longer hunt with a conventional bow. They bring a vast amount of prior bowhunting knowledge with them. Finally, plenty of conventional bowhunters injure deer.   The best approach to the issue of ethical shooting would be for individual states to consider requiring proficiency testing for all hunters.  

Myth :   Crossbow hunters are less ethical, dedicated and proficient than conventional bowhunters.

Fact:  This statement requires one to assume that conventional bowhunters in general are skilled experts, who share a common passion and fervor, and are inherently ethical hunters.   At face value alone, that assumption is unsupportable.   It is safer to assume and easier to support the argument that many conventional bowhunters would have greater success and more �ethical hunts� if they used crossbow

[Buckeye Trad Hunter]

Fact: This statement requires one to assume that conventional bowhunters in general are skilled experts, who share a common passion and fervor, and are inherently ethical hunters. At face value alone, that assumption is unsupportable. It is safer to assume and easier to support the argument that many conventional bowhunters would have greater success and more ethical hunts if they used crossbow.

Brian I'll agree with you that this statement is way over the top.  I don't agree with or endorse a statement like this in any way.  I am guilty however of defending crossbow hunters quite a bit.  I don't know if anyone has ever read some of my posts on this issue but I'll be completely honest about it, if it weren't for the crossbow being legal in Ohio my father would be unable to hunt except for during the firearms season.  I understand the argument of the differences between a crossbow and a compound and a stickbow. But what really burns my a@@ are statements exactly like the one made in the link.  The weapon someone chooses to use does not make them an unethical, clueless slob that is flailing around the woods wounding every animal that they see.

By the way, do you know the best way to get a University of Michigan off your porch?  Just pay for the pizza.      I owed you that one Brian.  I'm just glad you didn't say a buckeye was a  worthless  nut.

[Tsalagi]

Droptine, I'm going to start building and selling those. Then I'm going to lobby to get those into archery season. Hey, it's kind of a bow, um, after a sort, uh, you know, using the same principles and all that. I already have a GREAT name picked out for it! I'm going to call it the ExtremeMagnumBuckStomperMach5 M-25A1 Treestand-Mounted Crossbow. I know, I know, it's actually a ballista---but how many people know that outside of some Roman Army re-enactors! I stand to make MILLIONS!!!!! Think about it! You mount this baby in your treestand, do a kind of "boresight" on that baby dialed in to a pile of corn on the ground, and just sit there with the cord in your hand. You could be sitting there reading a magazine, see that buck munching that corn and just pull the cord and BADA-BING! It nails him to a tree! No tracking! It nails him to a tree! It's just that easy! Only problem I foresee is the range of this thing if you miss. That could present problems. "Who's the wiseguy that nailed my truck to a tree with this, uh, this, this, gigantic arrow thingie??!!"

This thing would also be awesome at 3D tournaments. I'd put it on wheels for that. You'd win every time! You'd get solid perfect scores! How could anyone dispute it? It'd carry the 3D animal a good 500 yards away! They're not going to walk over there and check!

And this thing would effectively put an end to every "What pound bow do I need for big game?" thread on the whole board here! What poundage do you need? Son, get one of these babies and you won't ever ask that question again! How does a crew-served bow sound to ya, m'boy? Maybe a thousand pound draw or higher. Pass-throughs ya want? This thing will pass through 5 friggin' 1972 Cadillacs and keep going.

[tawster]

One consolation I have with crossbow hunters sharing the woods with me is that they won't be adding the chaos that rifle shots add to the woods. Deer (and other game) behave very differently when folks are shooting rifles in my area. There are pros and cons to allowing crossbows during bow seasons, but fortunately, the disturbance due to firing one is negligible as compared to gun seasons. So, for that, I am thankful.

[Brian Krebs]

Buckeye Trad Hunter: no not worthless !! Where do you think we get our best coaches from ??    :D

[Ragnarok Forge]

I think washington is handling it well right now.  Crossbows can hunt in modern season.  Only disabled hunters can use a crossbow during archery season.  

A cross bow has as much to do with archery as a modern sniper rifle has to do with muzzleloading.  If it has a stock and a scope it is not archery.  Never has been, never will be.  Even in the dark ages the crossbowmen were never mistaken for or treated as archers.  It has been known since the dark ages that given a short period of time anyone can become reasonably proficient with a crossbow. The posted comments above from the crossbow folks are flat silly.  They fail to account for all the last minute folks who walk into the crossbow shop two days before season.  I can't shoot but I want to hunt.  Set me up!  I have a buddy who owns an archery shop and has guys try this every year with compounds.  Crossbows just make it easier for these yokels.

[Dale Sharp]

I don't think it is appropriate that crossbows be allowed in archery seasons. Archery seasons were created for bows and they should have stayed that way. Maybe in time they will get back to what they were meant to be.

In the "any-weapon" season is where crossbows belong, in my opinion.

[nutmeg]

Just so y'all know one of the great posters on this thread, Brian Krebs has passed on. See the prayers and concerns forum.(nut)   :(