MI may change firearms opener-could impact bow dates

[Mojostick]

Michigan bowhunters-this bill could eliminate some of the best bowhunting dates of the year and have negative impacts on herd structure as far as desired management harvest goals.

But if done right, it could expand archery season dates in November.

There's a bill that could change Michigan's Firearms opener date. The proposed bill currently says that the firearms opener would be changed to the Saturday closest to November 15.

While I applaud the move of firearms opener to a Saturday, the firearms opener CANNOT be EARLIER than November 15, for a host of reasons, including loss of archery dates, higher yearling buck kills, further worsening of antlerled buck to doe ratio, more females having to breed later causing more low birth weight fawns, etc.
If there is a change, firearms opener must be the Saturday AFTER November 15 or the third Saturday in November.

Not only would archers lose prime November dates, but Michigan's firearms opener is already too early, as far as modern management/harvest goals are concerned.

The good solution is for firearms season to open the Saturday AFTER Nov. 15, which would always be the 3rd Saturday in November.

That way, archers not only preserve those November dates and the state gets their Saturday opener to help retain hunters, archers would pick up a few more dates in November.

We need to contact Rep. Cotter and let him know that if this change goes thru, that it should be the 3rd Saturday in November, not the second Saturday in November.

Rep. Cotter...

    http://www.gophouse.com/welcome.asp?District=99    

Here's 2 links...

Bill proposes annual shift in opener of Michigan's firearm deer season

    http://www.mlive.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2011/02/bill_proposes_annual_shift_in.html    

The Grand Rapids Press editorial from today...

Editorial: Reasons to change the start of deer season in Michigan


    http://www.mlive.com/opinion/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2011/03/editorial_reasons_to_change_th.html#comments

Once the newspapers start writing editorials about this, that means the bill has legs. As mentioned, I'm all for a Saturday opener. But only as long as it doesn't cost November archery season dates.

[Mojostick]

Here's an informative video from Michigan Out Of Doors from the bills author and the MDNR Wildlife Chief...

 http://www.michiganoutofdoors.com/video-channel?utm_content=jdbagt%40chartermi.net&utm_source=VerticalResponse&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=&utm_campaign=Michigan%

[briarpatch]

It would only cost archery season dates if the 15th fell on a Sunday/Monday/Tuesday.....if it falls on a Wednesday/Thursday/Friday...the closest Saturday would come after.....right?

[Mojostick]

It would cost archery dates if it the "saturday closest to Nov. 15" was before Nov. 15.

[Mojostick]

Detroit Free Press backs split opener. In my opinion, a split opener IS the best solution to the problem.

If the UP opened the 2nd Saturday in November and the LP opened the 3rd Saturday in November, we'd all have the best outcomes for everything.

Eric Sharp: Time for a change in firearms season opener
 http://www.freep.com/article/20110303/SPORTS10/103030630/1058/Eric-Sharp-Time-change-firearms-season-opener

[rascal]

I grew up in Michigan, lived there for 30+ years and Im all for nostalgia. Fact is to this day I barely sleep the night of November 14th and Ive been in Iowa for 7 years now!  

Iowa has its split (season 1 and season 2) firearms deer dates in December the first Saturday through Wednesday and then the second Saturday starts a 9 day season.  Honestly I dont mind it a bit, splits up the hunter numbers which I view as safer, gives you an incentive to take the second season if you dont want to take time off work or just want a longer season, reduces pressure on the deer herd (well at least spreads it out). Lots of good points really.

I think pushing MI opener out for a week or two would be a good thing in the long run, let them big ole swamp kings have at the does during the peak of the rut and see what happens to the quality of your herd.  Not to mention a later start would up your chances of a "white opener", I used to pray for that more than a "white Christmas"!

Splitting the season into two hunts like Iowa does would also have the possibility of opening up more land for people to hunt.  Places that are full first season are apt to be open for business second season.  That parcel down the way youve always wanted to have a crack at might just be a possibility with a split season. Hunter recruitment would soar if more people had a chance at a place to hunt near by with less pressure. Low man on the totem pole at work might actually be able to take some prime deer hunting dates off as well, who hasnt put in for vacation and had it denied because the old timer on 1st shift has taken those dates off for decades?

Just a couple random thaughts on my part really  but often seeing things from the outside gives new perspective.  Ive grown to appreciate the later split season and its overall benefits.

[Bonebuster]

"But if done right"

RIGHT THERE is the problem. What are the realistic chances that it will be done right?

Personally, I believe the mid-week openers have been our saving grace all along. Without them, protection from overharvest of bucks will never occur. I believe the northern lower penninsula deer herd will suffer a sustained non-recoverable disaster.

How much more can our deer herd take?

[PEARL DRUMS]

I say make it 3-4 days long at the end of November and be done with it. Nothing good comes of gun harvest season anyway. It is more frustrating than fun for alot folks I speak with, I dont partake in it. Most well managed states (not just "shooter buck" states) have 2-4 day long boom-boom seasons.

[Al Dente]

Here in NYS, we experienced the same ordeal.  The DEC decided to reschedule the Regular(Firearms) season opening day, for a projected 2% increase in participation.  It used to fall on a Monday, and for decades there was not a problem with it.  Well, some powers that be decided that it would be a good idea to change the day to a Saturday.  They claim it was for that 2% increase, others say it was so that the youth would not miss school, or that adults didn't have to lose  vacation time or personal days from work.

What is did do was take a rut weekend away from the bowhunters, and depending on how the calendar falls, bowhunters could potentially lose 10 days of bowhunting.

What compensation did the bowhunters get in return, ZERO.  Promises of an earlier opener were renegged upon from the DEC.

Now, if you want the youth involved, how about the big, he man, chest pounder allow his son or daughter to kill that deer on opening day of firearms season instead of himself.

Also, they never factored in the financial impact on the local economies of changing the opener.
 
Hunters would arrive on the Friday, eat, sleep, purchase goods, and flood the local shops for the entire weekend, hunt the Monday opener, and stay usually until Wednesday.  Now, they still arrive on Friday, but depart on Sunday, because they fill their tag on Saturday or Sunday morning.  The taxes that the State has lost are immense, and local establishments have been hurt by this move.  Off-Season income helps these folks out, and now it is not there from the biggest hunt time of the year.

Nothing good came fron this move.

[JCJ]

"Also, they never factored in the financial impact on the local economies of changing the opener.

Hunters would arrive on the Friday, eat, sleep, purchase goods, and flood the local shops for the entire weekend, hunt the Monday opener, and stay usually until Wednesday. Now, they still arrive on Friday, but depart on Sunday, because they fill their tag on Saturday or Sunday morning. The taxes that the State has lost are immense, and local establishments have been hurt by this move. Off-Season income helps these folks out, and now it is not there from the biggest hunt time of the year."


Al:

Do you have economic data from your state that shows the impact on local economies and state taxes as the result of deer season prior to this change vs. after this change? If you have good economic data on this showing a direct cause and effect, that would be interesting and informative to see.

If you do not have this, do you think Jody Enck at Cornell would have this?

Thanks!

Jay

[Al Dente]

I don't have the data, just a lot of negative feelings from small business owners where I hunt. I would imagine similar situations in other locales as well.  If they are getting less revenue, then by default the State is losing tax revenue.

When looking at "Fiscal Impact", they only look at license sales, never the big picture.  A sad trend that we have been experiencing here.

[JCJ]

Originally posted by Al Dente:
I don't have the data, just a lot of negative feelings from small business owners where I hunt. I would imagine similar situations in other locales as well.  If they are getting less revenue, then by default the State is losing tax revenue.

When looking at "Fiscal Impact", they only look at license sales, never the big picture.  A sad trend that we have been experiencing here.

Al:

I think most state agencies are well aware of the larger fiscal impact hunting has on their states overall economy. Every five years we pour over data on such impacts that come from surveys like this:   http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/fhw06-ny.pdf   and others done by private research firms.

Jay

[Al Dente]

Jay, it is unfortunate, but NYS is in a downward spiral in every aspect.  The powers that be, have not looked at the big picture, impact, or public concerns for a while.  Albany is in crisis mode, with trivial tribal politics, excessive pork, and almost daily corruption scandals being part of the news.  Trust me, they are most definitely not looking at total fiscal impact when it comes to hunting regs other than license sales. It saddens me to write this about my home State, but just look at the news reports, we are in dire straits here.  Good luck in your fight.

[rascal]

I think most states would like to think they collect and interpret data related to the financial impact of hunting...CORRECTLY. It is hard to guage the impact of a Saturday opener  based on having one every 7 years versus having it every year.  Its a novelty when it happens currently and I think its a nice boost to local economies when you get otherwise lethargic hunters to participate simply because it falls on a Saturday once every seven years. More difficult to predict is whether the same, less than enthusiastic, crowd would continue to participate year after year given the absolute certianty of a Saturday opener. You can also bet your bottom dollar there is more to the bottom dollar here than meets the eye...I would be interested in knowing who exactly is lobbying for this Saturday opener?  If the general hunting population is more or less opposed, as has been my experience in years past when this has come up, then who exactly is "pushing" this agenda?

[Bonebuster]

Rascal, the DNR sends out deer hunting surveys every year. The consensus is clear...over 80% of the hunters repeatedly state that they want to keep the opener on the 15th of Novemeber.

Deer hunting has declined in recent years because of poor hunting prospects. On public land in most areas, deer populations are WAY below carrying capacity. Despite declining hunter numbers, the pressure on public land is extreme. 85% of our bucks are killed when they are 1 1/2 yrs old. Add the natural mortality and it leaves very few bucks.

The Michigan DNR lost control of deer management when they began to manage the deer for economic reasons instead of biological ones. Our management policies used to revolve around deer numbers, managing for quantity, not quality. Now our policies revolve around generating revenue...selling the maximum number of tags.

With close to a million firearms hunters for so many years, we had no chance at real quality, but now we no longer have the quantity either.

In short, hunters do not want to travel, spending money that is in short supply, so they can sit in the woods that do not hold deer. A Saturday opener is supposed to fix that?

[rascal]

Bonebuster, I think we are on the same page.  I stay in contact with my family and friends from Michigan and Im seeing the same sort of information you are.  Unfortunately I think thats where the bottom dollar really comes into play...simply put the state is after the revenue with no real concern for the resource.

I see little pockets of QDM areas that show some promise of delivering above average bucks but for the most part 1 1/2 years is all the average buck will manage.  Now obviously short of mandating some excedingly unpopular antler restrictions in the form of a QDM sort of initiative coupled with changing public attitudes on the issue I dont think the quality of the bucks you are seeing is gonna change anytime soon.  Not to mention if you place a minimum antler size restriction it will further decrease revenue.....err I mean hunter numbers....

I dont think a Saturday opener will fix anything, honestly it sounds to me like just more political hog wash.  The fact that they are once again trying to manipulate deer hunting/season/regulation for economic gain makes it clear where the priorities lie.

[SteveB]

Opening day should be set for what is best for the hunter's and the herd - not for how many breakfast's can get sold at the diner.

[Mojostick]

Actually, antler reg proposals for 3pt on one side runs with roughly 55-63% approval in the Michigan counties surveyed.
I believe "no spike" runs with around 80% approval.
In the one NWLP county that met the 67% threshold for antler regs a few years back, after a few years of hunters seeing what happens, I believe they re-up'ed those antler regs with 75% approval.
The only unpopular thing about the antler reg policy in Michigan is that the NRC currently requires 67% saying "yes" to antler regs and they count "I don't care" as a no.
My guess is, we'll see more antler regs, and more "hunter choice" type tags, and the clear majority of Michigan hunters will embrace the plan.