Forged vs Stock removal ....confused have ?s

[inthere10x]

I have read the $50 knife shop box but I'm still a little confused with forged vs stock removal method.  With stock removal method does the blade need to be heat treated and quenched after shaping the blade but before sharping? Or does a forged blade only need to be heat treated and quenched?
I've been gathering the tools together to get started but I think I'll try the stock removal method first. Good place to start?
I've gathered up about eighteen old files can they be used for stock removal or only forged blade?
Any other suggestions for books on the topic?
Anyone using the Harbor Freight 1x30 sander for grinding blades?
Thanks for the help.

[Steve Nuckels]

Johnathan, I'm a rookie at this myself, the file needs to be annealed first then shape as you want, drill holes for handle pins and depending on the length/size of the knife leave the blade edge thick and remove all deep scratches.  Then heat treat/quench then tempering cycles in the oven/toster oven.

Then your ready for final edge grind and finish work.

That's how I do it and understand it!  The pro's will give you more comprehensive Info, I'm still learning.

You can use files for both methods.

Good luck!
Steve

I'm building a small gas forge to start forging!

[kbaknife]

First, let's square up just a couple of things:
from the mill to the finished knife is all "heat treating".
If by "heat treating' you mean hardening, then, yes, both stock removal and forged blades need to be hardened.
If you are using bar stock from a mill, you will receive it in an annealed condition = soft.
Hardening and the subsequent tempering cycles are all quite specific as to times and temperatures according to the steel at hand.
Those files you refer to will be in a hardened condition. It will be nearly impossible to drill or thread, etc. any part of the file without softening (annealing) it first. It will then be useless as a knife that you want to hold an edge, and will require hardening and tempering, depending on the steel type of the file. As soon as any piece of hardened steel gets anywhere near red hot, it has lost all of its hardness and will require the proper steps to re-harden and stress relieve afterwards.

[Todd Robbins]

Carl's advice is sound.  It's a whole lot easier to use annealed steel to make a knife by the stock removal method.  

It is possible, however, to make a good knife with a file without annealing it.  If your files are good steel and not case hardened, you can temper it back in your kitchen oven to about 450 degrees for a couple of hours.  This will soften it to the point that it's not brittle but will still hold an edge very well. You have several options for the handle.  You can grind it for a hidden tang and just make sure the blade portion doesn't heat up while you're grinding by dipping it in water occasionally.  For a full tang design, if you have access to a torch, even a propane plumber's torch, you can suspend the blade end in water with a c-clamp or vice-grips and heat up the tang end until you get a little color in it. Or if you sand off the teeth 'till it's shiny, you can heat it 'till it changes from blue to dull gray.  Either way, now it'll be soft enough to drill holes in it for your handle.  If it still seems too hard, get a pack of masonry bits in the correct size.  They won't last long, but they'll drill your holes.  Now, use your 1"x30" sander to grind in your bevels.  It's gonna take a lot of belts and a good bit of time, but it can be done.  Work bare handed and dunk the blade in water when it begins to heat up.

It's a whole lot easier, cheaper, and will take less time, to just buy some 1080 from somewhere
and heat treat it yourself.

I bought one of those 1"x30" grinders to use when I have free time at work.  I ground two smaller blades and one larger one out of 440C and one larger camp knife out of D2 last Friday night at work on that little grinder.  It took over twice as long as on my 2"x72" at home, but was a whole lot faster than a file and sandpaper. Tonight I'm using an orbital sander from Harbor Freight to polish them up before I send them out to Mr. Bos for heat treating.

Todd

[OconeeDan]

Good advise above.
To simplify things for stock removal:
you get barstock, it is annealed (soft).
Cut it out, drill pin holes, and stamp your name in it.
Then heat treat it, and temper it.  I do this full thickness to reduce chance of warping.
I then grind it out and finish it and take care not to overheat it while doing so.
Dan