Hamon line Queation

[Steve Nuckels]

Could someone give an explanation on how to create a hamon line, which kind of cement/clay to use, how do you apply it and remove it, etc...

Thanks, Steve

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IN GOD WE TRUST

[LONGBOWKID]

Your not the only one wondering here Steve.

[Kevin Evans]

OK Jeremy and Karl
Do it again this time I'm paying attenion and promise will show my work with your instructions  
Thanks Kevin

[kbaknife]

Oh, no.
Do you know there is a difference between a "hamon" and a "quench line"?
To say "hamon line" just ain't right.
The "hamon" is created by the "clash" between high temperatures in steel running up against cooler temperatures in steel.
When you fully austenize a shallow hardening steel with the spine covered in clay and quench it, the exposed area quickly cools to begin the creation of martensite.
The area under the clay is insulated from the quench and remains hot for a period of time long enough for the steel to revert to pearlite.
It's the "clash" between the exposed cooling steel and the protected hot steel that create the homan, which si very random because you need to consider the different thicknesses of the steel from guard to tip and spine to cutting edge.
So all along these varying dimensions, there's this real random "storm" going on between temperatures.
This "storm" results in hard and soft areas that, when etched, show the hamon.
As well, this only occurs in shallow hardening steels like 1095, W1 and W2 and NOT deep hardening steels like O1 and 5160.
Hamon:
 
 
 
To get a "quench line" is most often achieved with something like 5160 by only heating the lower portion of the blade with high heat from an acetelyne torch and then quenching and using a limiter plate in the tank to restrict how much of the blade is in the oil.
The line is created by the level of the quenching oil.
 

 
 

 

In working with these methods, this is where all of those factors I have discussed come into play like the proper steel type, and the matching speed of oil for THAT steel type and proper control of heat.
You can fiddle around and get a blade hard. That's not a difficult task and can be done by violating all kinds of basic knifemaking metallurgy rules.
But when you want to specifically create, not only a hamon or a quench line, but STILL!!! have a blade that is correctly hard right where you want it, with NO cracking and no soft spots, then you've got to get all those little duckies in a row.
Steel type, precise control of exact austenizing temps, correct austenizing times, correct quench oil for THAT steel, correct clay and thickness placement, quench depth and time, etc.
Nuthin to it.

[Wampus]

Satanite works great on W1, W2, 1095:    http://home.comcast.net/~eellis2/EllisCustomKnifeworks/refractorycoatings.html  

First paint a very thin wash of clay all over the blade.  This will help it cool faster than bare metal.  Then take a popsicle stick or something similar and paint a thick line along the blade where you want your hamon.  The hamon usually comes a little down past this line so it's good to put it a little further from the cutting edge.  Next fill in the area between this heavy line and the spine of the blade with a coating of clay, fairly thick but not as thick as the main line.  You can also run thin little "legs" of clay toward the cutting edge to get the wispy effect.  Let it dry and then do the other side.  When it's all good and dry, heat to critical temp and quench in a fast medium like water or Parks 50.  Some of the clay will blow off when it hits the quench and the rest can be knocked off easily.

I wanted a wider hardened area on this one but the soft area came closer to the cutting edge than I really wanted.  Still cuts fine, but not the look I was going for.

 

[Steve Nuckels]

Wow! OK!  Karl, the last photo you posted is that a "quench line" or "Hamon" if it is a quench line how did you limit the blade contact with the quenching oil to get that varied line?  

I'm currently working on a project using a US made file would that steel dictate a "Hamon" or a "Quench Line"?  I would like to try this technique but I don't want to ruin the blade.

I'm not sure I will ever grasp the technical knowledge required to be good at this, so I apologize this question is off base.

Thanks, Steve

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IN GOD WE TRUST

[Steve Nuckels]

Wampus, that's a really interesting pattern!  I would be happy with any resust.  I'm using a file now so will Satanite work on that?

Steve

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IN GOD WE TRUST

[Wampus]

Don't know what kind of steel your particular file is.  Lots of old files are made out of W2 and some new ones are 1095, but don't know what all of them are made of.  
Ed Caffrey has a description of how he controls the depth of his quench with a "limiter plate" in his tank on his home page.  Scroll down to the "hardening" section in this article:   http://www.caffreyknives.net/journeymanarticle.html

[kbaknife]

That's a fantastic hamon, Steve! (wampus)

Steve, on that last photo is a quench line in 5160.
Here is a poor picture of my quench set-up. It's just one that I had in Photobucket.
In the tank with the letter "A" on it, you'll see four 1/4" bolts sticking up. They are going through a piece of heavy expanded metal that creates a plate for the blade edge to set on. The four bolts make the depth adjustable according to oil depth and blade width.
 

[Jeremy]

Satanite works well, but there's an easier to use and readily available alternative: High temperature fireplace mortar.  I use Imperial that's rated to 3000 degrees.  You just paint it on with a stick and go.  No wash coat, no drying.

My methods aren't anything special.  Coat the blade, heat the entire thing up to critical and quench.  After handrubbing the blade out as far as I care to go (600grit) I do a quick 10-20 second etch in a dilute FeCl acid (1:1 with distilled vinegar or 1:3 with water).  Then it's just finger polishing from there.

I initially use Flitz and work the entire blade evenly.  That gives me a satin finished edge and a gray spine, with a nice hamon.  If you want the hamon to really pop though, polish the area above it further.  It'll help to switch to a slightly more aggressive paste for this (red rouge and honing oil works).

The really cool thing about a true hamon is it changes depending on how you look at it.  Look at it one way and it looks dark gray... change the angle the light hits it and it's white.  Very cool stuff.

 

I use 1095 and quench in warm corn oil.  This works well for the knives I make.  Go with a thicker steel or larger blade though and the blade won't harden properly.  I'm not quite on the edge of not getting a fast enough quench for a full harden, but I'm I'm close enough that I need to pay attention.

 

 

 

 

Kevin, wait until you see the hamon on your knife (should be finishing up next week if'n I don't crack another handle scale doing the inlay!  :mad:  )  I didn't quite get the effect I was going for, but the hamon dances down the blade  :D

[Jeremy]

 

Karl, I was at a knife show last May and saw a table full of 5160 blades with spectacular hamons, so I have to say that it is possible.

[Steve Nuckels]

Very interesting "stuff", thanks to everyone for information.

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IN GOD WE TRUST

[kbaknife]

Jeremy, I've never found any necessity to dry Satanite?
I put it on, walk into the forge and put the knife in the oven!
You can certainly clay up 5160 and quench it.
You'll get "something" when you etch it, I'm just not sure it's what you can call a "hamon" as much as it's a line of differential hardening.
The hamon is a result of the manganese in the shallow hardening steels.
The deep hardening effect of the chromium in 5160 kind of wipes out what could be called a true hamon.
Ray Richard clays a lot of his 5160 blades.
I'm going to play with it myself and see how it etches out.
Maybe I'll do that on my next 5160 blade!??!
Thanks for the inspiration.