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Author Topic: 01 steel rockwell test  (Read 1240 times)

Offline DANA HOLMAN

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01 steel rockwell test
« on: May 15, 2009, 09:25:00 AM »
to all
any one that's uses 01 steel to make your knifes.
i had a test done on a peice of scrap 01 and it came out great. one test was a 60.5 and the other one was a 61 rockwell hardness, that may be a little hard for knifes, (but it's hard) and i'm happy, because i thought i was not getting it hard enough.
i have done the same thing since i started making knives.
i use a 1 brick forge, with 2 propane tanks, total time is about 30 min. then quench in veg oil, then temper it @ 400 degrees for 1 hr.
i know that not all of you use the brick forge, but if you do and use the same procedure you may come out with the same hardness ( or close)
anyway just some info. that i wanted to share.
thanks
dana
"When Satan is knocking at your door,
Simply say,

 "Jesus, could you get that for me?"

Offline kbaknife

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Re: 01 steel rockwell test
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2009, 12:02:00 PM »
Dana, with that hardness, you had better temper twice for two hours.
Not only do you get some stress relief on the tempering cycles, but especially on the first one you get a benefit that did NOT occur on the hardening cycle.
The austenite was forced to create martensite during the quench - which we WANT - but then cooled down too fast for the complete transformation to take place.
What you have now is what is called "retained austenite". There is a steel formation that is sort of "frozen" in time somewhere between austenite and martensite.
When you do the first tempering cycle, which relieves some of the hardening stresses, as well as removes some of the martensite brittleness, this "retained austenite" proceeds to COMPLETE the transformation form austenite to martensite.
So, you now have BRAND NEW MARTENSITE!
It's brittle, and it's hard and it's under stress.
That's the rreason for two tempering cycles.
That new martensite now needs to be TEMPERED!
It needs stress relief and brittleness reduction.
1 one hour tempering cycle just ain't enough.
If you've got your steel full hard, it needs TWO 2 hour tempering cycles.
There isn't enough gain to be achieved in most situations to do a third.
That's an example of diminishing returns, as there is even new martensite created on the second tempering cycle, but seldom is there enough to demand our attention.
It's great to know you are getting your stuff hard.
Let's just hope that your temp was not so high as to get undue grain growth!
When the last deer disappears into the morning mist,
When the last elk vanishes from the hills,
When the last buffalo falls on the plains,
I will hunt mice for I am a hunter and I must have my freedom.
Chief Joseph

Offline DANA HOLMAN

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Re: 01 steel rockwell test
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2009, 01:26:00 PM »
Thanks Karl
I'm starting to understand more about the steel, I'll start a new procedure with two 2 hr. temping cycles, i thought it was to hard, but i really thought i was not getting the blades even close to 61.
I'm still a little confused, if i'm getting 60-61 on the hardness,can you tell me why i'm still able to scratch the blade (alittle) with the
file?
i tried to scratch a buck knife that i had and could not make a mark.
i would love to spend a week with you to learn more.
maybe you could write a book on your journey.
thanks for your time
dana
"When Satan is knocking at your door,
Simply say,

 "Jesus, could you get that for me?"

Offline Phoenix 1967

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Re: 01 steel rockwell test
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2009, 03:39:00 PM »
Karl, do you mind if I quote that for an explanation for newby's for the need for 2 tempering cycles? I'll gladly give you credit...
Lawren

Offline kbaknife

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Re: 01 steel rockwell test
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2009, 04:26:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Phoenix 1967:
Karl, do you mind if I quote that for an explanation for newby's for the need for 2 tempering cycles? I'll gladly give you credit...
No need to quote me. That's common metallurgical information.
When the last deer disappears into the morning mist,
When the last elk vanishes from the hills,
When the last buffalo falls on the plains,
I will hunt mice for I am a hunter and I must have my freedom.
Chief Joseph

Offline kbaknife

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Re: 01 steel rockwell test
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2009, 04:31:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DANA HOLMAN:
I'm still a little confused, if i'm getting 60-61 on the hardness,can you tell me why i'm still able to scratch the blade (alittle) with the
file?
i tried to scratch a buck knife that i had and could not make a mark.
dana
You will often have "de-carb" skin on the outside of the blade.
This is the area that was exposed to the harsh atmospheric environment of the forge. As such, it was attacked by heat and oxygen and will have suffered carbon loss.
This "skin", since it lost a lot of carbon, will not get as hard as the steel below/underneath it that was never exposed to the atmosphere.
That's why it's important to always leave enough material to grind away after heat treating.
You might/may/should find that the steel underneath this is hard enough to resist the file once you grind off the "skin".
I often tell my customers that once they have sharpened their new knife for a while that it may stay sharper - longer.
That's because they are removing the de-carbed area along the cutting edge, which is the thinnest portino of the blade.
I always try to leave enough "meat" on the cutting edge to be able to grind some off before I sharpen it.
When the last deer disappears into the morning mist,
When the last elk vanishes from the hills,
When the last buffalo falls on the plains,
I will hunt mice for I am a hunter and I must have my freedom.
Chief Joseph

Offline kbaknife

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Re: 01 steel rockwell test
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2009, 04:33:00 PM »
To be honest, with your simple set-up, I would not be using O1.
To get the best out of O1 it's important to hold it at 1490-1500 degrees in a controlled atmosphere for about 15-20 minutes.
This will ensure even hardening IF it is quenched in a quality medium speed quenching oil.
When the last deer disappears into the morning mist,
When the last elk vanishes from the hills,
When the last buffalo falls on the plains,
I will hunt mice for I am a hunter and I must have my freedom.
Chief Joseph

Offline Lin Rhea

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Re: 01 steel rockwell test
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2009, 04:48:00 PM »
Quote
Let's just hope that your temp was not so high as to get undue grain growth!

 
Karl,
      You have touched on a very often overlooked aspect of making a knife with real guts. It will look good, harden, draw back, and all but will it hold up under some extreme usage? One needs to do some serious testing to know. Make a knife, it dont have to be pretty, and test it till its destroyed. Bent 90 degrees without breaking. No matter what steel. Find the right recipe for that steel and get to know it well. Learn it's limits. Control the grain growth or reduction. Lin
"We dont rent pigs." Augustus McCrae
ABS Master Bladesmith
TGMM Family of the Bow
Dwyer Dauntless longbow 50 @ 28
Ben Pearson recurve 50 @ 28
Tall Tines Recurve 47@28
McCullough Griffin longbow 43@28

Offline DANA HOLMAN

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Re: 01 steel rockwell test
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2009, 05:09:00 PM »
Thanks Karl and Lin
With what i have, what type of steel would you use, 1095, D2, A2,
i have been buying all my steel from jantz supply
i don't have my forge finshed yet, i would like to know what the masters think.
thanks
dana
"When Satan is knocking at your door,
Simply say,

 "Jesus, could you get that for me?"

Offline Lin Rhea

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Re: 01 steel rockwell test
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2009, 05:48:00 PM »
In my opinion, you cant beat 5160 for all around forging, heat treat, and performance. Which ever one you settle on, test a few knives. Lin
"We dont rent pigs." Augustus McCrae
ABS Master Bladesmith
TGMM Family of the Bow
Dwyer Dauntless longbow 50 @ 28
Ben Pearson recurve 50 @ 28
Tall Tines Recurve 47@28
McCullough Griffin longbow 43@28

Offline kbaknife

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Re: 01 steel rockwell test
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2009, 07:10:00 PM »
Listen to Lin, 5160 is an awesome all around steel.
It's my favorite "go to" steel.
Easily acquired.
Simple tools and basic recipes will make a knife that is tough as nails and will cut and perform well.
Some long, drawn out and tedious steps can make it a high performance blade.
1084, when you can get it, is an easy one to control as well. Just get it to a little above non-magnetic and quench it in something wet! (that's a little bit of a joke.)
1084 has the PERFECT amount of carbon for hardening easily.
1095 needs almost as specific a temp as O1, but does not need to be held there that long. A little too high or a little too low and you'll miss the sweet spot.
My vote is for 5160 as well.
When the last deer disappears into the morning mist,
When the last elk vanishes from the hills,
When the last buffalo falls on the plains,
I will hunt mice for I am a hunter and I must have my freedom.
Chief Joseph

Offline OconeeDan

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Re: 01 steel rockwell test
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2009, 07:50:00 PM »
It seems like most everything I read says that the temper should involve 2 separate cycles.  Some say longer time, some say less time, but usually 2 cycles.
Question....can you run the cycles too long?  Or do you want to temper for "at least" the time recommended?
In other words, if it is recommended 2 cycles of 2hrs each, how would 2 cycles of 3 hours effect it?
Thanks, Dan

Offline Lin Rhea

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Re: 01 steel rockwell test
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2009, 10:04:00 PM »
Dan,
     It should not hurt at all to leave it at draw temps for several hours, although not required. As long as it dont get above the prescribed draw temp. Lin
"We dont rent pigs." Augustus McCrae
ABS Master Bladesmith
TGMM Family of the Bow
Dwyer Dauntless longbow 50 @ 28
Ben Pearson recurve 50 @ 28
Tall Tines Recurve 47@28
McCullough Griffin longbow 43@28

Offline chiger

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Re: 01 steel rockwell test
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2009, 12:42:00 AM »
Dana,

Man those guys are good.  I would just add this.  Oil quench steels like O1 are, for the most part, what's know as deep hardening steels.  They will harden evenly to their core and should be for best results.  That's why they should soak as karl said in a temp controlled forge and temper ovens.  

The water quench steels like W1, W2 and 10** series steels are, for the most part, shallow hardening steels. That's why you can just take um to critical and quench to produce a functional blade.  They grow grain a little differently because of a less complex chemical structure.

But they all need to be heated till they are soaked to the core when they're tempered.  That exact time is controlled by the cross sectional thickness of the blade, but for about any NORMAL blade 2 hours will get er done.  

Dan,

That speaks to your question.  You can't really leave it too long, but it's a waste past complete heat soak.  Once you achieve soak and then cooling the benefits have been reaped.  Additional benefits are seen in additional soaks and cooling cycles (temper cycles) as the guys said.  Provide you allow the piece to cool to room temp slowly inside the oven between each cycle before you start the next.  That's pretty important.
chiger,

I generally eat whatever I can get catched up!

Offline kbaknife

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Re: 01 steel rockwell test
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2009, 07:23:00 AM »
JD, that cooling is important as well.
Some folks, depending on what "school" of thought they are from, will even place the blade in the freezer overnight betweem tempering cycles.
Helps to finish off the retained austenite.
When the last deer disappears into the morning mist,
When the last elk vanishes from the hills,
When the last buffalo falls on the plains,
I will hunt mice for I am a hunter and I must have my freedom.
Chief Joseph

Offline OconeeDan

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Re: 01 steel rockwell test
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2009, 07:42:00 AM »
Thanks, there is some great info here.
Dan

Offline DANA HOLMAN

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Re: 01 steel rockwell test
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2009, 11:16:00 AM »
I would like to thank everyone for their input, I'm going to do like lin and karl said and make a test knife out of 01 and 5160 and i'll let you know what kind out,this would be for all the newbe's
thanks for your help again
dana
"When Satan is knocking at your door,
Simply say,

 "Jesus, could you get that for me?"

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