first knife build questions

[kansas stik man]

should i shape my scales before glue up or after?  should i put any kind of a edge on blade before heat treating it? and i use an old file for my blade but not sure what steel it is, does anybody have the color list for tool steel for tempering?

[Broke another one]

I got started a while ago so lets see if I can't be of help.

You should put a edge on the knife before heat treating, but after annealing the steel. That way filing down the edge is less work for you.

I rough cut my scales out of whatever wood I'm using to the general shape of the handle leaving 1/4" more wood than handle to play with in case of mistakes. Then glue and shape the scales perfectly with the handle (note: I glue the scales on after I've completely finished the blade)

But this is just me.

[Cody D Works]

I use a small dab of super glue to hold my scales on tempoarily then I shape them. Use a thin blade to carefully pop off the scales then sand off the super glue. Finish the blade then epooxy the scales on.

[gables]

You should work your edge down to about the thickness of a dime before heat treating. After heat treating then you take the edge down to sharp.Many makers completely finish the blade, less final sharp, wrap the blade to protect it and then do the scales, apply finish, etc. After sealing the scales then remove protective tape from blade and final sharpen.Check out Lin's post at the top of the forum on the hidden tang.

[Lin Rhea]

Good advice gables.

Somewhere between the "draw back" part of the heat treat and completely finishing the blade, you should test the blade's heat treat. Make sure it is right before you go past the point of no return. Lin

[gables]

Lin, of course, is right. I have been working hard on nailing down my heat treating recipes. Recently I took a knife from temper to full sharp with some new 1084. I then tested the blade with a file, chopping wood, brass rod and cutting rope. I felt like my recipe was good so I then finished sanding and putting on the handles. I had to be real careful in the final sanding to not cut myself. I have confidence on the next knife with the same steel to where I can forgo the testing before final finishing.

[kansas stik man]

i have and experiance blacksmith that is going to help me heat treat friday but he uses spring steel for his knives and does not know the color chart for tempering my knife which is made from an old file. should i just fallow the color chart i have or what?

[Lin Rhea]

KSM,
 What color chart are you speaking of?

If it is indeed an old file, it is probably 1095, which is spring steel, but I cannot say. For a rockwell of 58 or so I would draw back at 400 degrees. Then TEST it. If it is too hard, put it back in the oven at 425 degrees for the perscribed two hours. Test again. If it's too hard bump it up 25 degrees again and so on.

Question: When I refer to testing, do we understand what that means?

It means to roll a cutting edge onto the knife. Get it sharp. Then cut some rope, chop a board, do the brass rod test, etc and decide if it is peforming to your needs. All of this is done before the handle is installed.

A bladesmith should be trying to get in a position where he can take a mystery steel (high carbon spring steel, file, etc)and heat treat it properly by working up the chart, if there is one, till he makes a blade that is servicable. I personally like to be able to do it, but dont hav ethe time to waste on mystery steels. Even so, I test every blade, every blade. This is to allow for varying conditions that might cause the heat treat to not "take". The goal is to remove variables and not add them with "unknowns". I tell you this so you guys will know why I and others here sometimes dont speak up. It's not because we're uppity. Speaking for myself, it's because I just dont do things that way or I cant recommend doing it that way or in the context of the question asked. I cant afford to. It does take some of the fun out of it, but the results are are hard to dispute.

For the most part we here on TG like to do this for a hobby in the spirit of tradition which is great and refreshing. That's why I'm here as well.  Make it as fun as you can.  

[kansas stik man]

thanks for the advice and yea i agree i have had tons of fun building my knife. just trying my best to get it to turn out and be usable.  the color chart i was talking about it the list of color & tempitures that you will go through while tempering a knife to the right hardness.  im very excited to heat treat my knife so i can continue on in the process id really like to have my knife done in two more weeks.

[Lin Rhea]

I applaud your exitement and wish you the best on the knife. Let us know how it turns out.

The chart is a rough guide to the temperature that you imparted on the blade, but alloys that may be in a mystery steel will affect the rate of color change. That is why I stress testing.

In other words, if you make two blade of different mystery steels, but use exactly the same methods without testing, one may be too soft and the other too hard or one may be just right and the other too hard, etc. even though you follow a "chart". Think of it as a tuning process.

[kansas stik man]

sounds good lin thanks again for tips