Forge Burner Question

[gudspelr]

I just got an early Christmas present from my folks-some cash to try and make a forge   .  I've been looking around and originally was going to do the 1 brick forge with a propylene torch.  With a bit more cash, I was thinking of building a 1 or 2 burner forge with a steel pipe as a main body.

I looked on zoeller forge and they have sidearm burner and z burner.  It shows a drawing for the first mentioned and parts list-the only big difference in the z burner appears to be a Y instead of a T?  I'm wondering how hard it is to build one?  We have a welding supply place nearby that I could get the contact tip.  And what is the point of the plug and contact tip?  Does it reduce the gas down to a finer stream or something?  Also, how does the propane hose attach?  Looks like the square plug portion and tube would have to somehow stick into the hose?

Any help would be very welcome-just trying to figure out if I can make those parts myself instead.  Have a great Thanksgiving.

Jeremy

[Scott Roush]

I have the side arm burner by Zoeller.  I was going to try making it all myself but I had a hard time finding everything I needed.  The propane hose just fits to the burner assembly by a quarter inch nipple stepped down to whatever it is.

If I were you though.... I would spend your money on a blower and make a vertical forced air forge.  Don Fogg's website has a lot of info on how to make one and the burner is just 2" black iron pipe with a nipple threaded or welded on.  There are people here who can help you with this if you go that route....

OR... just take the money and buy the side arm kit from Zoeller or a similar one from Ellis.  I would go with Ellis because Zoeller rarely answers emails and it will take you FOREVER to get anything from him.

Or just do as Tai Goo does and line a coffee can with 2" refractory wool open up a hole on the side for a weed burner and a hole in the top for ventilation and you are good to go for simple forgings.

[gudspelr]

Thanks Scott-I appreciate the info.  I'll look up Don Fogg's website for some more ideas as well as Ellis.  Hopefully will find out today if I can get some of the ceramic blanket and fire bricks from a local store.


Jeremy

[milehi101]

I receintly built a 2 burner forge from a 5 gallon air tank form a discount house.  Ilooked at Zeller forge's burners and decided on the side arm.  I found the parts list and made my own for around $20.00 each. Some of the parts are hard to find.  I had to order the Wards reducer and the sceduel 80 pipe nipple that the mig tip goes in.  The plug that goes into the Wards reducer needs drilled for the sceduel 80 4 inch nipple to go through.  The contact tip is just a gas jet for the burner.  If you google small gas forges you will find a article by Nathan Creel on building a forge from a air tank and he has directions on making the side arm burner.  I really like mine and it easly reaches  temperatures high enough to weld.

[Scott Roush]

I've started using the ceramic wool that is locally available at a woostove/fireplace store and only time will tell how long it will last.  It is rated a bit lower than the kaowool that you get from Ellis or whoever.... but I don't have to pay shipping and it holds heat.

I only had a single burner in a set-up just like Milehi's, and I had a hard time welding.  I'm sure the second burner helps with that.... but it would sure use a lot of gas I imagine.

My vertical forced air reaches welding temps way faster and more efficiently than my venturi..... I also like it because you can it run it at a VERY low pressure for heat treating without all the sputtering.

[gudspelr]

Hmmmmm....you guys have me thinking....  Most gas forges I've seen are horizontal-how does the vertical compare and are there some particular advantages to it?  The first thing I think of is I'd be limited to the length of stuff I could put in to the diameter of the pipe.  Would the squirrel cage blower set up work on a horizontal forge?  I like the idea of having the high temps (would like to try forge welding at some point) without needing the second burner if I could...

milehi101-Thanks for the info-will definitely look up the Nathan Creel article.


Jeremy

[Ragnarok Forge]

Jeremy.

Go the the scrap yard in your area and buy an 8 inch diameter pipe for a horizontal forge or a 10 or 12 inch pipe for a vertical forge.  You want regular steel pipe material so you can weld on it easily.  Look around your are for refractory stores. Look under fireproofing, ceramics suppliers, and refractory in your phone book.  They sell the brick and Kaowool or similar materials you are looking for.  Do your research before deciding which forge to make.  Damascus is a big jump for a beginner.  I would look at building a forge that will work for general forging.  By the time you are ready for damascus work you can adjust the forge you have by adding blowers to the system.  

If you buy from Zoeller get the newer style burner with the y in the system.  You won't have oxygen flow problems in windy conditions like my forge does with the older system.  I can add a blower system to my present burners easily enough so the y system would work for you as well.  

For damascus work I plan to ITC coat my high heat satanite liner which will put my forge well over the welding heat range with the two venturi burners.  It is very close to that heat range now.  

I am looking at building another forge out of 8 inch pipe.  I will have two inch sections cut off each end of the pipe so I can make hinged doors with a cap and small openings for the steel to be put into the forge.  This will greatly increase the efficiency of the forge.  

I don't like forced air for the simple reason it demands electricity in most cases.  Not a huge deal but big enough to keep me on a venturi system.  

If you can't find a wool or satanite source let me know.  I have a supplier here in Gresham who carries all of those types of materials.  The minimum order is $100.  I am looking at ordering some more bricks, and a bucket of satanite soon.   I could pick up the materials you need and ship them your way if necessary.

[gudspelr]

Thanks for the info, Clay-some good stuff to think about.  Was just looking up places today for the kaowool and bricks.  Looks like I've got a few places nearby that might have it or at least point me to places that do-thanks for the offer.

I've done a few searches today on forges here and found some neat stuff.  If nothing else, I have some great ideas from several of you to try out.  Thanks

Jeremy

[milehi101]

Just a short response on the gas burn of my 2 burner forge using side arm burners.  I will burn a tank of gas in 7 hours at about 7 psi.  I made a plug 6 inches deep out of ceramic wool insulation anc coated it with ITC-100.  It will slide in the heat chamber and reduce the volume to the point that I only use the 1 burners on smaller pieces.  I also made a idle circuit on the burners and can put the burners to idle just by turning a ball valve.  With the forge running  on 1 burner and at idle it will get about 12-14 hours from a can of gas.  The heat is still up to a good forging temperature.  I also hinged the front door and left 4 1/2 X4 1/2 opening when the forge is running. These numbers are very acceptiable to me.  I also have 2 inches of Ceramic wool insulating the chamber including the door and it is coated with ITC-100.

[milehi101]

Just to clarify when I do not attempt to heat metal on Idle I only use it when I am doing something that takes time away from the forge for a few minutes.  The idle circuit keeps heat in the forge and saves gas when I start to forge again I just turn the ball valve and the burners come on

[Scott Roush]

My vertical made from 10 inch pipe and cheap, local ceramic wool in a 2" layer with satanite coating, 75 cfm blower, 2" pipe can run at forging heats and then some at only 2 psi and weld at 5. My propane usage has gone way down since I switched. At 6-7 it will melt steel in the furnace I've just built for wootz making.  The advantage of the vertical set up is that it creates extremely even heats with swirled flames dispersing evenly as they rise.  With such even heats I'm now feel good about putting in a thermocouple.  Now that I've used both, I just can't see any advantage (other than electricity.. Which is not a problem for me.... I have my venturi if i want to do any demos without power) to the venturi burners whether or not you plan to weld.

[Scott Roush]

By the way... If search through Karl Andersen's posts, he has a lot of pictures of his forge burners out there.... Which is what I modeled mine after... And isn't that different from Fogg's.

[gudspelr]

Thanks for the clarification, milehi and good idea on making that plug-hadn't thought of that.

Scott-Funny you mention Karl's stuff.  I sent him a pm earlier this evening asking some questions about his.  Quick question on the burner for the vertical forge-is the needle valve what makes the gas go into a very small, fine stream like Mig tips in other burners?  Or is there something else in the burner I'm missing?  Is there just a standard size of needle valve, etc. or is there a specific size for it all?  Thanks for your input.

Jeremy

[Scott Roush]

Did you find the Fogg site?it's just like that... Just a 2" pipe with 1/4" nipple threaded or welded into the side to deliver gas.... Very simple...

[gudspelr]

Thanks Scott-have a great weekend.


Jeremy