5160 for first blade?

[Rusty Snuffers]

Through my employer, I can get 5160 in 6' lengths, .250" thick by 2" wide for around $20.  Would this be a good steel to work with to make my first blade?  I'm thinking to cut/grind the basic shape and grind or file the flats, heat and quench, then "bake".

I'm planning on building a coal forge for starters.  Should I be able to get it hot enough to properly heat treat 5160? (I've read 1575*F for 5160) One of the guys in our shop has some quench oil he can get me.

I'm sure I'm leaving out a ton of info since I'll be starting at experience level zero and don't know exactly which questions to ask.      :eek:    

Rusty

[Rusty Snuffers]

I should add that between steps, I'll be posting many questions here and waiting before moving to the next step.   :D

[Ragnarok Forge]

I would build a propane forge instead.  Coal is tough to control heat with without some training and a lot of practice.  5160 is a great beginners steel.   I would evenly heat the blade to just at or below nonmagnetic and quench.  You will want to do this three times.  This will allow maximum hardness without overheating the blade.  It is hard to hit an exact temperature and a blade at it in a propane forge.  It is virtually impossible to do so in a coal forge.  

The method I am using form my heat treatments is to triple normalize, then anneal.   Forge and grind to shape,  triple normalize and then heat and triple quench.    This method was recommended by people with a lot more experience than I have.

[Rusty Snuffers]

Thanks for the info, Clay.  Sounds like propane is the way to go.  It's what I'd prefer anyway, only I have what I need to do coal.  I'll just force myself to be patient so I can have the right tool for the job.      

After my initial post, I found an article written for folks building a test knife from 5160.  I learned a good bit about the entire heat treating process from this one article.  It pretty much lists the steps as you listed them.  Good stuff!

Thanks again,
Rusty

[Kevin Evans]

5160 is a great steel and if you went to a ABS school thats what they start you with.
I would also let the coal go for awhile and build(or buy) a gas forge.
Maybe you might want to consider a thermo cycle ,before you heat and quench,then draw back(bake)

[Ragnarok Forge]

I would recommend adjusting the knife treatment a bit from the test knife method.  The ABS test is designed to show that you can place soft and hard steel where you want it in a blade, while maintaining edge retention and strength.  The test is not designed to provide the optimum heat treat for a knife that will be used in the field.  If you do some research and read up on the forum on the American Bladesmith Society you will see quite a few posts on heat treating 5160.

I use Canola Oil heated to 125 degrees as my quench medium.  While not the optimum oil it is close and does the job nicely for 5160.  Canola is cheap and readily available.  

From my reading and experiences with 5160 ( limited so far ) I have been following a  recommendation to plunge the entire blade into the oil and hold it there for a count of 5.  Then lift the spine of the blade out of the oil and hold it there until the knife is below 400 degrees.   Leave the tip and a couple inches of the spine in the oil.  This gives you a hard edge with a bit softer spine that should still be hardened into the spring steel levels.   The test blade I am working thru a series of tests is holding up great so far.  

This quench method was reccomended for several different 5160 knives I am working on.

[Kevin Evans]

(The test is not designed to provide the optimum heat treat for a knife that will be used in the field.)From above post?????????
 
I highly diagree with Ragarok,I think the test shows you exactly how to build a knife that would be great in the field
In fact if done with care it might cut a 2"hanging rope,cut through a couple of 2X4.
and shows its flexiblity,
Now if that knife won't work in the field for you, I would do what Ragarok said.

Kevin Evans, Journeyman Smith

[gudspelr]

I don't want to speak for Clay and I'm assuming he'll chime in sometime here, too.  Mr. Evans, I think I agree with both of you...  To obtain your JS stamp, you clearly have a high level of understanding in all the aspects necessary to make a great knife and if I'm lucky (and persistent...), I'm hopeful to get that good someday   .

I agree with you that for a knife to pass the performance test, it has superior cutting abilities and edge retention.  Blade geometry and the entire heat treatment process must have been very good in order to pass.  The latter must also be true in order to pass the bend test and depending upon what "in the field" means, that may be a great knife that will serve it's user very well for decades to come.

If in the field pertains, for instance, to bushcraft, the performance test knife with such a soft spine MAY not be the ideal.  By that, I mean such tasks as splitting wood (using a baton to hammer the spine, forcing the blade into and splitting the wood) would potentially end up deforming the spine.  M.S. Burt Foster wrote something about his experience (albeit very hard use) with a knife doing just that.  He chose to utilize a process leaving him with a bit harder spine to avoid that potential problem.

Of course, this whole theory depends upon just how soft that spine is.  I've watched videos where the knife came back SO FAR towards straight after being bent, it was just plain impressive.  Perhaps a knife that stays far more bent is much softer and would be more prone to the problem I mentioned.

I'm certainly not all that experienced and don't mean to make any statement here as fact.  I value any of your thoughts, Mr. Evans-I've got a lot to learn   .


Jeremy

[Ragnarok Forge]

Kevin,  

I have recieved plenty of advice on both sides and yours is totally valid.  The last person to state what I posted above was a master smith who frequents this site.  Some folks like a knife that will bend.  Others want one that bends and springs back fully.   Each has their merits and followers.

[Ragnarok Forge]

Jeremy summed it up nicely.   I want a field blade to be able to stand up to unexpected abuse.  This means I am looking for a tough and flexible spine with a higher spine hardness than provided by the heat treat in a journeyman test blade.  Each maker pursues a heat treat they believe is best for their blades and the uses they are intended for.  Kevin's point and comments are totally valid for his intended uses with his blades.

Excellent examples of great knives with soft spines are blades with beautiful Hamon.

[Kevin Evans]

I got it guys'

You guys build them like you like them!
By the way good job listening to M.S.
Think there is  close to 115 in the world.

I 'll build them like I like them!            

And the guy at the top of the page(that I was trying to help) can build them like he likes them.

[Wampus]

Coal isn't that hard to learn and work with.  Propane is a lot cleaner and easier to find these days, but I learned on coal and did fine for a few years before I ever got around to building my first gas forge.
I use gas these days, but if you have a coal forge handy and a supply of good coal, it'll work just fine for forging and heat treating simple steels.

[Rusty Snuffers]

Thanks for all the feedback, guys.  That's what's great about this site.  There may be many "right" ways to do things and you're sure to find them all right here from the 'Gang.

Rusty