Forging steel

[tomsm44]

Ok, I'm finally getting close to having all of my equipment set up to start doing a little forging.  I'm planning to order some steel in the next month or so and wanted to get you guys' opinions on a few things.  I've heard a lot about Aldo steel and found most of what I'm interested in on his website, so I plan to order most of it from there, unless there is a better supplier that you guys know of.  I plan to get some 5160 because it seems to be a general concensus on here that it makes a tough blade for larger knives, especially knives that are intended for chopping.  I also plan to get some 1095 because I've used it for stock removal with good results and bacause I want to try my hand at a hamon sometime, which I've read is almost impossible to do with 5160.  I think I'm safe with these two steels, but any pointers on these or other steel recommendations are welcome.  My main question is about the size bar stock that I get.  I was thinking that .250 x 1.25 5160 would be a good starting point for a bowie knife.  But for smaller knives, do you guys think it better to start with something closer to the thickness/width of the final product, or would I be better off with larger stock that I could forge thinner for smaller knives and also use for larger knives?  I guess what I'm asking is would it be worth it to stock up on different size bar stock to reduce the amount of forging required for smaller knives, or better to just get one or two larger sizes and forge it smaller if I need it?  

Also, if I do start trying some hamons, I gather that W2 and W1 typically produce better hamons than the 1095, but Aldo doesn't appear to have either in stock.  Is there anywhere that currently stocks either of those steels?

Thanks,
Matt Toms

[D.Ellis]

Matt,
My condolences for starting off down the slippery slope of forged blades.......there is no turning back.    
There is no better steel supplier than Aldo in my opinion. He shipped me 48feet of steel for no charge after I had problems with my 5160......can't beat that.
I love 5160, but it is getting much harder to find good quality 5160 these days......and it is often on the low side of the specs for carbon content. I would highly recommend 1084 as an all purpose forging steel. It is smpler to heat treat than 5160, and will hold an edge better. Get some 15n20 at the same time......it's cheap, and you will want to start sticking layers together before too long(slippery slope remember   )
For the size, 1/4 inch thick 1.25 wide is a good starting point for bowies of moderate width.......if you want the real wide choppers, you'll need to start with wider stock. I just bash the 1.25 inch wide stuff down smaller for little blades.
I can't help you with the hammon stuff, as I prefer a steel that doesn't require a super fast quenchant. Some of the other steel bashers on here can help you there.
Loking forward to seeing your progress.
Darcy  

[tomsm44]

I've used 1084 a couple of times as well.  Still have a little 1/8" stock left from a set of hunters that I'm trying to finish up right now.  So your saying that 1084 is comparable to 5160 performance wise?  I just noticed that a lot of the larger knives I've seen on here have been made out of 5160 and have heard several people talk highly of it for that purpose.  I thought it might make a little tougher blade, even if the edge wears a little quicker.  I guess I could draw the 1084 down to a little lower hardness and get the same effect?  Thanks Darcy

[gudspelr]

1080 is good steel, but to get the most of it, you need a fast quenchant. The 10xx steels are generally speaking, "simpler" than 5160 or 52100. They contain fewer alloys (like chromium). With fewer alloys, the simple steels will need to be quenched faster to properly "trap" the martensite and get the most out of the steel. 5160, on the other hand, can be quenched very effectively in Canola oil (slower) and still get hardened. A faster quenchant can cost you (parks #50), but it's engineered for the very thing we want it for. I ended up wanting to try forge welding and use 1080/15N20, so I forked out the money for the good quenchant. I use it for the 5160 though, too. I know a MS who used vet grade mineral oil up through his MS test knives. The bottom line is, you can get a very good quality knife with several different steels. The keys are taking out as many variables as possible (mystery steels, changing processes, known/appropriate heat treat).

I'd go for either 5160 or a 1080/1084 or even both-those are the two I have in my shop.  I like your mentioned dimensions, 1.25 wide is good. I also have some 1" wide for smaller knives. I don't have a press or power hammer and am not the most skilled forger. I prefer to practice shaping, putting in bevels, tapers, etc instead of just plain old reducing the stock to a smaller size. Good steel is just about the cheapest part of making the knife, so I don't mind getting a few different dimensions to work with, you'll always use it for something. I've bought from Kelly Cupples out of Washington-he's a good source as well as Aldo.

And Darcy's right.....there's no going back....   .

Jeremy

[D.Ellis]

Matt,
I think 1084 may give up a tiny bit of toughness, but it would be hard to tell the difference in regular or even heavy use.......and as you say, you could tweak the HT to end up very very close to the same. The edge will stay sharp a bit longer with the 1084 though. When you think about it, lots of guys use 1095 or 1084 for big choppers........and very good choppers I might add. I don`t think you`ll have any regrets using 1084 instead of 5160...........and it`s much more availiable in good quality barstock.
1080 is lower manganese like 1095........needs a fast quenchant. 1084 however will harden just fine in canola. I was always a big fan of 5160, but I am switching to Aldo's 1084(look at the chemistry on his website and you`ll see it has a few goodies added in) as my go to steel for everything up to short sword size.
Well I may mix a bit of 15n20 in there from time to time too.      :D  
Darcy

[gudspelr]

Darcy-
Thanks for mentioning the difference with 1080 vs 1084-I was unaware of that. Makes heat treat on the 84 much easier (cheaper quenchant) to get the desired results. Just when you think you know something.....   .

Jeremy

[tomsm44]

Thanks guys.  I'll probably get the 1084 instead of the 5160.  I would still like to get some 1095 so that I can try a hamon in the future, but I may hold off on that for now.  That'll keep my order a little simpler and probably help me develope a more consistent heat treat from knife to knife since I won't be changing steel.

Thanks,
Matt