Frustration: here's what not to do

[gudspelr]

Sooooo, I'm what you call a really slow knife maker. I think, then I ponder, and eventually I finally move. I have a problem as well with knowing how I want something to look and my skills not being there yet, too. This has equalled more knives in the unfinished state, broken, or in the shame bucket than I have completed.

But-I have been doing much better lately (or so I thought). I have 3 full tang bird and trout knives I made and only 1 got ruined after a heat treating incident. But shoot-I'll take 3 out of 4 at this stage. I was also working on 4 hidden tang hunters. Left one of them behind when the guard fit was painfully bad. Got the other 3 handle blocks pinned and epoxied up and shaped the guards. Again, I thought things were going swimmingly. I was grinding the handles today when disaster struck-the ironwood went down first....I found the epoxy.... I grumbled and moved on, then the Cocobolo one went down the same way.

 

I decided to beat the handles off with a hammer as I actually have a deadline for these to be done and that's next weekend. I cut some more wood and thought I'd at least made it through with the flame maple one. Then I looked closer and took some sand paper to it. 3 for 3....

 

 

 

I cut some more wood and went to working on getting them slotted for the now slightly narrower tangs (trying to help myself out for round 2). There were a few times I thought I was going to throw something at the wall-I was having fits trying to get that last tiny gap gone between wood and guard... But, somehow I managed to get all three worked out and they're now pinned and epoxied.

 

I'd say miracles happen, but the jury's still out on these... The lousy thing is, I've been having to travel a lot recently for work and only have my weekends to get much done. At least I got them glued up tonight. Now they can set up and I can go to handle shaping like a madman (slow, methodical, and enjoying the journey) late tomorrow.

So, note to self: pay better attention to the tang slot in relation to the handle shape I'm going for. And then, don't grind into it. Aren't hobbies supposed to be fun...?      


Jeremy

[Lin Rhea]

Jeremy, I feel your pain. On the bright side, pain is a great teacher.

I am assuming that you want some suggestions.

The type of hidden tang construction you have chosen is pretty basic but you have made it more difficult right off by having a tang so wide and that width carries out through it's length. Any imperfections in your drilling will show up in the handle shaping. Remedy: Narrow it by a margin and taper it slightly more.

With the chosen construction, you are limited to drilling and broaching. Perhaps burning if you are careful. These are crude and risky compared to other construction methods. Remedy: Use a mortised tang construction by splitting or purchasing split (book matched) scales. Dark woods almost make the joint go away. This allows open access to the channels and if time and care is taken, this is a good option. More pins are used in this method.

This the most important thing and simply put, "Be Careful." I can see from the pictures why you ground into the epoxy. You have ground the top of the handle more or less flush with the top of the blade and under the handle in the curve, you have ground up past the ricasso. Even if you did a good job on your tang slot, you are in danger of getting into the epoxy. You have not left ANY room for adjustment or correction. I don't have a remedy for this. You just have to "see" it in the knife using the built in boundaries and know that if you cross them, you will get bit. Just as I look at your photo and "see" that you are too far in on top and bottom to be safe, you have to stay away from the boundaries by a safe margin. You start doing this in the forging and grinding of the blade. Build in your safety margins. These are small fractional amounts to begin with so you have to start forging, or at least grinding, in small fractional amounts. Aim small miss small.

Any one of the above adjustments would likely have made the difference. All together they would swing the odds much in your favor.

Another thing I see that might help you to not dig up into the finger area. Get away from the grinder sooner and hand work that area with a round file and sand paper if necessary. Your curve looks like it was made on a round wheel. Is that so? Whether or not it is, the curve is too blunt causing your eye to want to carry the flow on up into the handle material. A sharper curve or, better yet, a changing curve will blend better staying within the boundary of the ricasso bottom. That ricasso/handle line is sacred. Let it tell you where the curve starts. Stay away from it by a safe margin and sneak up on it by gentler means.

Again, you are dealing with small measurements and a blending of parts. The only way to get them to work together is to immerse yourself in the details within your mind to get an understanding of how they all play their part. Then from the beginning, the forging and grinding, set yourself up for success.

[gudspelr]

Lin, this ^^^ is why I like you and why everyone respects you so much. I sincerely appreciate the time you took to write all of that out.

And I very much appreciate the advice. I left the tangs relatively large in an effort not to have "tiny" tangs-which clearly wasn't a good idea... I actually did what I felt was a good job on the broaching, with hardly any movement at all in there. Even so, I knew I needed to be careful when shaping the handles. And clearly, I wasn't careful enough...    

As for the grinding, I originally glued up then very roughly ground on the finger guards with the 3/4" wheel just to get rid of some of the major portions. I've been taking a little vise and some tools in my travels and finished more on the guards with a couple large round files/rasps. I was aiming for even with the ricasso at the deepest part of the curve. I think part of my problem with that one was making the curve go too "straight up" instead of making it arc back further? Also, going a bit too far with the rough tools means I go too far at more finishing grits. Funny enough, only the Cocobolo one got ground into the epoxy there-the other two were on the spine side of things.

On the mortised handle construction, honestly-it intimidates me a good bit. A few years ago, I decided I'd use some Ebony scales I'd been given for that. I put a really thin piece of copper in between (like a very crude frame handle) and things didn't go very well. I had a heck of a time using chisels to get the tang slot mortised correctly. I'm guessing a few things handicapped me on that one-not the right tools to remove the wood and Ebony can be a bit brittle/chippy. Couple the two together and no wonder I didn't get it to work. I think I should try this again, but I need to be better prepared. I don't have machinery to mill out the tang slots on each half. Are there some specific tools you'd suggest? I'd be very interested in looking to this method in the future.

Again, I can't thank you enough for sharing your advice and experience, Lin. I sincerely hope I get to shake your hand one day.


Jeremy

[akaboomer]

Jeremy,  I use a Dremel tool with a wood shaping bit. It works well and isn't too tough. Just go slow and perhaps try a practice piece.

Chris

[Lin Rhea]

No problem Jeremy.

As Chris says, a Dremel is next best thing and I still use mine a lot.

As time goes by I have accumulated a lot of failures. What I try to do is ask myself why it failed and then adjust immediately and forever more. Well, mostly     .

I don't use Ebony wood. Checks too bad and as you say is chippy. I use African Blackwood instead and can get a similar look but it is more stable.

I rarely use light colored woods. If I do, I am particular about the construction. I don't want to split it and glue it back together because the joint stands out so clearly. So, in that case, the wood might influence my decision to drill and broach instead of slitting and and gluing.

[gudspelr]

I have a foredom flex shaft that I may need to bring into the rotation... I tried looking up wood shaping drill bits, but not much luck, yet. Will have to do some more checking.

I managed to get one shaped fairly well and the second halfway or a little more. The third is sanded into the really rough shape, but all three appear to be ok at this point. Going to do a bit more work on the second tomorrow afternoon before I have to head out again. But, with some files and sand paper, I have a decent shot at "maybe" having these three done for the weekend.

Thanks for all the advice and help. Big 'ol failures sure hurt, but the hurt also reminds me the next time to do it better...   .

Jeremy

[kbaknife]

You might also profile the handle material to your basic handle shape before you even put it on the tang.
You can have a great deal of your work already done simply by cutting it out on the band saw.
Draw the knife out on paper.
Cut out the handle profile and transfer that to you block.
Cut out the profile - then attach to your tang.
Get a good knife vise and do lots of your handle material stock removal with files.
I'm telling you the truth from having made sooooooooooo many of the same guffaws that my handles never go near the grinder.
Too much bad stuff happens too fast.
And when you have a deadline - going slow is the answer.
Not fast.
When you try to get things done fast this is the sort of thing that happens.

[gudspelr]

Thanks very much for the advice, Karl-all good points. I've got a fair bit done on these three and most of it was with files and rasps. And so far, so good.

I was just pondering handle construction on my drive and thinking about Lin's suggestion of mortised handle pieces. Which then led me to thinking about adding a small piece of accent metal between the two pieces of wood. That ended up getting my brain going on frame handled knives and me thinking about yours...

I don't have a mill, metal lathe, or surface grinder (but I should still be able to come up with ways to work around that) and am seriously considering trying something similar to your frame handles this fall/winter. I'm really wanting to have a better end result and be able to do more shaping and use different materials for guards and spacers before final assembly. Plus, I REALLY like how strong your method is. It would most certainly challenge me, but it would definitely make me grow and make a few things in my skill set a ton better, too. And with that method, I'd never grind into the tang    .

Jeremy

[kbaknife]

I don't think I'd put metal between the pieces of a mortised handle.
That way you know you've got a good attachment between the pieces.
Like Lin said, use a darker piece and the glue joint almost disappears.
And they are very easy to do.
I even pin the face of the "laminates" to the guard so I can take them off and put back on at whim.
So many ways to put a knife together it's nuts.

[Kevin Evans]

Been awhile
 
WOW. Jeremy this brings back memories..
you are Lucky to have so much good advise(use it)

My suggestion is re-read what these guys say about 10 times.
Chris Montgomery how is that folder coming along???

[Lin Rhea]

Hi Kevin. Been missin you friend.

[Bladepeek]

If you have a dril press, it's surprising what accurate "milling" you can do free hand. I trace the handle tang on the inside of the handle blocks and then set the depth stop on the drill press to cut just a "smidge" at a time, with the handle supported on the drill press table and sliding the handle block around, cutting the tang outline deeper a little at a time. A small, flat Dremel bit will cut the recess perfectly flat. You can even shim up the front of the block with a piece of masking tape to cut the recess on a taper to fit the taper of the tang. Of course this only works if the handle scales are still flat on the outside.

[gudspelr]

Thanks for the info and advice. Kevin, I plan on paying close attention to all of the great suggestions   . No need or desire to reinvent the wheel here...

Bladepeek, thanks for the idea on using the drill press. I may give that a try, sounds pretty easy and a good way to get things all lined up well.


Jeremy

[tomsm44]

I do the same thing as Bladepeek.  Except I bought a 1/4" and 1/8" end mill.  The smaller end mills aren't very expensive and being made for metal, you can't hardly wear them out on wood handles.  The flat cutting surface makes a really uniform tang slot.

Matt