thank you all, your knowledge and expertice amazes me. i will try these avenues of aproach and see what happens. the other thing ive been deliberating on is to try self bows again. ive been reading all the build-a-longs... im ready to plunge in and give it a good colledge try. with more patience i might add.i have some items for trade that i will be posting today i would like a good peice of osage with little or no knots or pins. i already have a scraper set and a drawknife. just need the wood. ive always wanted a 2 peice takedown self bow and i think i can do iti will keep everyone posted on what happens next thank you so much for helping in my decisions ,regards ruddy