Tite bond III with deer leg sinew

[Brent Hill]

Building a flat bow with osage and was considering rawhide then thought deer leg sinew if I'm going to go ahead and back it ?  Has anyone tried titebond with sinew ?  How did it compair to hide glue ?

[Osagetree]

Never used sinew but I don't think TB II is going to work well...

Do some searching in the "how to section" and you should find some good info.

[KENDALL TECHAU]

You have to use hide glue with sinew.

[Jason Jelinek]

I've used Knox Gelatin with sucess.  I believe Knox Gelatin is refined hide glue.

[tah-gah-jute]

i have used TBIII with deer sinew and elk rawhide.works fine.talking with one of the best bowyers i know.he uses TBIII all the time with sinew.trick is heating sinew(not boiling)in warm water for about half an hour before applying.

[ChristopherO]

I've sinewed back 3 bows using TB111 and it works very well.  If you're a pureist then scrap the idea but if you are more practical in a humid climate it helps counter that effect to a degree.  
Some claim that TB111 cannot pull the bow into reflex as hide glue does.  I've seen it pull reflex into a bow, though.  Maybe not as much as hide glue but it isn't static.  Here is what I found out with my first osage recurve;  It took a 40# tillered bow well up in poundage.  I let it sit one full month before touching the bow after sinewing.  It was then 44#  and that is what I wrote on the bow before givng it to my son.  But since then it jumped even more draw weight and 2 weeks ago when my son finished shooting the course we reweighed it on my tillering tree and it is now, a little over a year old pulling 56.5# at 28".  It did loose some poundage when humid last summer but not like a wet noodle.
In applying I only soaked my bundles for a few seconds in warm water, until they became limp, and used my fingers to squeeze off the excess moisture.  I watered the TB111 down some to make it less thick and the sinew took it up with no issues.
I'm not scorning hide glue in any way and someday may get to glue one with that method but TB111 does a very good job.

[Brent Hill]

The humidity and rain is my concern and I'm considering trying the sinew / TB 3 versus the rawhide / TB 3 combo.  This is my first osage bow and I know that I have violated the ring somewhat and hope to overcome that with the backing.  Thanks for the suggestions.

[John Scifres]

TBIII works as well as hide glue.  I was a skeptic too before I tried it.  If you have never tried it, I highly recommend it.  I understand the intuition associated with using a natural glue with a natural backing but the results I have gotten just don't prove it true.

I soak the sinew and then squeeze out the excess water.  I then put glue on the back of the bow and lay the sinew on in small bundles.  I spread glue on the top after I get enough down.  You can add more sinew over it immediately or even later after it is dry.  It will take about 2 days to dry to the point where you can work it but I like to wait a couple weeks to tiller.  This lets the extra moisture work its way out of the bow and sinew.

[John Scifres]

If you are doing it merely to protect a violated back, then rawhide might be a better choice.  It's much easier and not as heavy.  PLus, unless you have designed your bow to use sinew, it can be counterproductive.

[Brent Hill]

I was first only looking for the protection and planned on a 66 to 64 inch bow with rawhide since I did not plan on trying sinew sinew due to the difficulty of the glue and humidity.  However, with what I have read tonight, the additional power and shorter bow 60-62 sounds promising.  I'm also interested in trying the process.  How do you prepare you back of the osage bow before applying the glue and sinew?  I have read that some clean with alcohol, some actualy put a finish like truoil on the osage before applying the sinew.  Thanks for the help.

[Flinttim]

On an osage bow of 60-62 inch I don't think you are gaining anything with sinew.. Sinew hits it's stride on bows shorter. The last I built with sinew was 58 inch long. Like John said , if it's just to protect the back , go with rawhide. I have not used Titebond so will reserve comment. I know Ed Scott does it with his bows. Sinew is not a magic wand you wave over a bow and pronounce it "Great".Some think that breaking up 2 deer legs and slathering on some glue they are good to go. Generally I plan on 8-10 deer leg tendons minimum. broken down to very fine strands. I use Knox Gelatin which is a refined hide glue. I like Knox since I build bows in the Winter only and the glue does wonders for cracked finger tips (which I am prone to).

[ChristopherO]

John and Flinttim makes some good points with planning on a sinew backing prior to the building of the bow with the design factored in.  I've only have great respect for Ed Scott and his Owl Bows, which I've had a chance to shoot on 2 occasions.  They are great bows by all standards.  Those I've seen on display were all sinewed backed (with TB111)no matter what the length.  But he is selling his bows to a public whereas he has no control over how it is used or who will pull it back to extreme draw lengths.  
The stiff handled recurve mentioned above is 64" NTN with nearly 4" stiff tips which makes the working limb section much less.
If your 64" longbow has 4"-6" of non working limb tips then I suspect it would be a good combination.  But if you have any inkling that this bow is defective, and could break, in any sence then rawhide is much less labor intensive than sinew.

[Silent Bear]

I have used tb3 on backing a bow with sinew and was not impressed, homemade hide glue works best for me

[walkabout]

i think its really your choice, sinewing it may not give the result you want, but if theres a chance the bow will fail then it would be worth the try for the experience of the new method. as far as rawhide goes, ive seen it used to patch cracks in limbs, so it would probably add good insurance if thats what youre looking for.

[Brent Hill]

I have cut the stave for drting and have roughly shaped the limbs at 1 1/2 wide at grip to 3/4 in at tips (limbs are about 3/4 thick from back to belly) with each limb being 38-40 inches with the intention of shaving that down to a workable length whether 66 or 58 or in between.  I always planned on backing it to be more confident but I am leaning to sinew for the protection, extra power and the experience.  Now I'm just wondering what rough dimenensions I should look for for either a 58 inch like the owl bow in TBM or the longer bow with stiff tips.  I do plan on a rigid 4in handle with 2 inch fadeouts.  Thanks for the input.

[ChristopherO]

Look up the Traditional Bower's Bible, I think volume 2, on the chapter on sinewing.  It will give you a ton of information to start with.
The back needs to be completely clean and degreased before the glue goes on.

[walkabout]

with the limbs being that wide you could do something similar to a pyramid design, it would be easier to tiller and you could get away with it being a bit shorter. if youre unsure of how its going to turn out or if you are second guessing its stability then go for something a bit longer, so theres more limb working overall to distribute the stress. im sure you could still sinew it, even possibly put some recurve into it via steaming/heat if you wish,since youre going to sinew it for insurance anyway. im not the most firmiliar with the pyramid design but im sure someone can help you out with what the stave will handle as far as thickness,etc.

[Brent Hill]

Thanks walkabout, I'm now thinking sorta pyramid with stiffer thinner tips.  Any suggestions on dimensions for flatbow osage with sinew, with stiff 4in handle and 2in fadeouts appraciated.

[walkabout]

for a pyramid design you typically go with something like 2 inches tapered to 1/2 inch down the entire length, it takes advantage of woods strength to width ratio, which makes it easier to tiller because the whole thing is one thickness throughout. with the width you have already cut to youd have to make your tips something like 3/16, which is really narrow. i suggest just looking around at some posts and maybe reading some of The Bowyers Bible to get ideas for exact thicknesses, then just go with what you think is best. if you go slowly im sure youll be ok, osage is known for being pretty resilient even with knots and holes through the limbs.as far as length ill simply say this, having a shorter bow really only provides convenience, as in ground blind hunting, or moving through brush. the extra inches(say if you make it 66"" will help to keep your areas youre worried about a bit safer and give the bow more forgiveness. i havent built a bow shorter than 66 inch so far because i still question both my patience and my tillering abilities, which sometimes go hand in hand. if all else fails and you still are unsure then just pm one of our gurus here, im sure theyd be more than happy to help. good luck.

[walkabout]

search the site for the terms"osage selfbow" it should give you some results with dimensions posted.