chasing osage rings: ring violation/drawknife edge

[yewsage]

I just chased half the back ring of my first ever osage stave, and the ring was very thin, less than 1/16th i think.  In a couple places near the first tip, the knife jumped and nicked the ring.  As i started to get the hang of it, this happened less and less often.  I started slicing toward the edge with the 4" Lee Valley drawknife, and when the latewood gave away, the blade had nowhere to go but off the stave.  Also, this drawknife is very very sharp and easily maneuverable, so i would switch back and forth between slicing and scraping with it.  Overall it seems like an awesome tool, easier than my giant drawknife for this light, delicate work.

What do you think?  Is a nick okay?  If it doesn't go through?   And whats the popular opinion of drawknives:  do they work better sharp, to cut, or dull, like wedges or levers?  

thanks

[4est trekker]

1/16" ring is thinner than I'd be comfortable with unless I backed it with linen, rawhide, etc.  I especially wouldn't trust it with that nick in it.  Post some pictures, but if it were me and there were no thicker rings below the one you chased and nicked, I would eliminate the tool marks and back it with rawhide.

Regarding drawknives, opinions are generally mixed.  I prefer mine to be rather dull, acting more like a slicing wedge that glides along the early growth rings and removes it, leaving the latewood ring underneath unmarred or tooled.  It'll make a crunching sound akin to dry Rice Crispies.  If I have a lot of wood to remove, I'll use either a sharp hatchet or sharp drawknife to get the bulk off, but generally I go with my trusty, dull drawknife.

[yewsage]

thanks 4est.  i ordered sinew last week, only 5 chunks of elk back or so, and i have 4 osage staves.  Probably not enough sinew to go around...have to use it on the bow with the thinnest back, i guess.

[ranger 3]

On your next one try using a scraper it works better for chasing a ring, a pair of cheap scissors work great and go slow in real good light.

[Art B]

How close to the tip?

If the nick is close to the tip and didn't violate the ring then I personally wont worry about it. A nice thread or sinew wrap (and a matching one on the other limb) can handle that if you worried.

But if you're new at chasing rings maybe getting a little more experience wouldn't hurt. If you have the wood, chase a few more rings just to get the hang of things.

I like my draw knife sharp, but not overly sharp. Just enough to get the job done. ART

[George Tsoukalas]

1/16 is pretty thin. I usually try doing those with a scraper. I actually use curved shavehooks. Jawge

[yewsage]

curved shavehooks, Jawge?  not familiar with those.  

Art B, i agree experience is worth obtaining, but this particular stave has thin rings...no real benefit to be had by going deeper.  And as i said, i've got 4 staves to work with.  

By  the time i had to pack it in yesterday, i had gotten from the tip to the handle and worked out a pretty good system.  I skew-cut the latewood rings above, using the drawknife as a scraper on the earlywood.  Since i chopped all the bark and most of the sapwood off with a sharp hatchet, the back was very rough, so actually my very first step was to smooth everything down with a 4in1.

[frank bullitt]

I agree with Art, the nick at the tip is not a biggie. The last few or so inches of the bow shoud be pretty much static, non bending. But to put out of your mind, wrap it! Use some of the sinew you have.

As for practice chasing rings, use one of your other staves, or the one your working on and work a ring on the belly side for fun. You'll be cutting off anyway.

A pocket knife works good also as a scraper. Along with my drawknife, this is all I need to work down the back! Have fun.

Steve

[Osagetree]

I use my draw knife upside down for chasing rings and getting close to my profile lines. The bevel upside down gives good control and wont normaly go deeper into the wood were you don't want it to go.
Rightside up for bark and sapwood removal.
I use it as a scraper to remove rasp marks too.
Bought a used one at a flea market that has 35 marks on it; one for each shooter built with it.
Never ever even contemplated sharpening it!!!!!!!

[yewsage]

thanks buddy, i'm down with that.  turn it over.   didn't even occur to me.  

This new drawknife is heading for mark #1 right now.

[yewsage]

http://www.youtube.com/user/bowyer10?feature=mhw4

is this done properly?  

[it's vid of the back of my bow, having raised rings around pin knots]

[Osagetree]

Yewsage,

Sorry I had not checked this thread sooner.

Watched 3 of your vids but I got no sound card    

Anyway, all looks good except at the pin knots. You need only a dime size raised ring around those.
Maybe you were saving that for last?
Most knots that small I don't leave anything on top of them.

From what I can see your rings are thick enough not to worry about the knots or any slight violation as long as you didn't go clear through.

Good work so far!!!!! Keep us posted!

TTT

[George Tsoukalas]

When I chase a ring, yewsage, I look for the ring I want on the butt end of the stave. That tiny ring was the best you could find or was it the closest heartwood ring? LOL. I go up the right side for a foot, down the middle and up the left. I am searching for the next ring on the right edge. That way if I miss it it won't matter because that will come off while shaping. I go to the right of a knot and around the left never loosing sight of the ring.  A few observations, yewsage, on the video. First, first it's pretty difficult chasing a ring with a drawknife only because rings often  dip and are irregular. You can get close but the final chase needs to be with a curved tool. I use shavehooks. You should have brought out that gooeneck a bit sooner. With a straight tool like a dknife you'll cut through the next ring off to the side somewhere. Second it's not a violation unless you've gone through the ring and into the next one. I'm not sure what you mean by "nicks". If you've gone through then start again unless the violations are on the edge.  Third, there's way to much wood on those knots. I want the knots to be the same growth ring as the rest of the stave whenever possible. I generally leave extra wood around the width to compensate. Fourth, when you tiller a stave with knots try to leave those big knots slightly stiff. They don't like to bend too much. Fifth, take the stave outside and look for violations. I think I saw a few to the right of that big knot. Have fun. Jawge

[George Tsoukalas]

Ring chasing tools. I don't use the big dknife much but the smaller push knife I use to get close and then finish with the shavehooks particularly the curved one. Jawge
 

[yewsage]

ok Jawge and Osagetree, thanks!  

Those shavehooks look like paint-stripping tools.  

Thanks for the advice on the pins.  O.T. you got no sound card, but i was talking on the video about how guys who know better should chime in and smarten me up!   I will scrape those down.  

And Jawge, with the drawknife i have (4" blade carving drawknife) i just take small, controlled slices off the latewood until i hear that little crunching sound of the earlywood, then upright the knife into a scraper.  By "nicks" i mean just that:  little tears which are the result of the knife skipping and which do not penetrate through the ring.  You can see by the three years' growth on the pin knots that this was not the layer right under the sapwood!  I actually debarked and removed the sapwood with a hatchet, so i had to go a few rings in.  But this is honestly the first decent one.  

and thanks steve for the idea...do you chase a belly ring before recurving your osage?

[George Tsoukalas]

No the shavehooks are woodworking tools. I don't know of any other bowyer using them. LOL. When I went to a buy my moisture meter the clerk suggested I also use these for my bows. Bow was he right on. Becasue of the handles I can really get some leverage. I'm not a scraper fan. LOL.  yewsage,  I was just making the point that the rings are not consistent in osage.I've had some pieces that had rings that were deeper in the middle. When I was done chasing I had a valley down the middle of the stave. Had I used a straight tool to chase I would have ended up with a bevy of violations to the right and left. Nicks are ok unless they go through. Anyway, I just did upload this little buildalong. You gave me the impetus to get cracking on it.    Jawge
 http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/osage.html

[yewsage]

it's a lot of fun to chase rings,  i find.  i'm looking forward to the next one.  just wish i had more time!

[George Tsoukalas]

Good; making bows is fun or it should be! Jawge

[yewsage]

chased the back rings on two more osage staves during my free time last week.  I just tried to make a small video of them and how they were done, but forgot to press the button.  So anyway.

I used the little drawknife, bevel down, to good success, and also used both the rough and the smooth side of a farrier's rasp to chase the back ring and i found that by shooting for the ring ABOVE the one i wanted, i did not harm my chosen ring in any way.  From there i used a scraper to get the last ring gone, and even then, if the heartwood was thick, i would use the file side of a farrier's rasp (from 3 rivers, a great tool)...no problem.  file and scraper, good to go.