Author Topic: Selfbows and efficiency  (Read 456 times)

Offline b.glass

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Selfbows and efficiency
« on: November 17, 2010, 05:02:00 PM »
I'm trying to become a better bowyer and I feel like building bows that have good cast is important. I'm not a speed demond but I think a good selfbow should shoot atleast 100 + it's poundage fps. Or that many yards. Example: A 50# bow should shoot a 500 grain arrow 150 yards or 150 fps.

What are your thoughts and do you test your selfbows to see if they meet your criteria?
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Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Selfbows and efficiency
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2010, 05:26:00 PM »
I agree but I don't own a chrono. Jawge

Offline DVSHUNTER

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Re: Selfbows and efficiency
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2010, 05:41:00 PM »
bona. I totatly agree! I always test my bows, but I use feet per second per pound. I have made a few different designs as well. Changing limb width and profile helped me alot. My fastest bow design so far has been the deflex/reflex hybrid... As I call it. I am getting around 3.5 fps/lb. With a ten grain per lb. arrow.
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Offline deadpool

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Re: Selfbows and efficiency
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2010, 05:43:00 PM »
i got the chance to chrono my red oak longbow today, it pulls about 42# 28" i shot 29" 520g aluminum arrows and got consistent speeds of 134fps, i have no doubt you can achieve those kinds of speeds with your next selfbow

Offline traditionalman

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Re: Selfbows and efficiency
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2010, 05:52:00 PM »
keeping the tips small and the mass weight low at the tips can help with speed. Wide limbs and heavy tips kills speed.
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Offline beetlebailey1977

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Re: Selfbows and efficiency
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2010, 07:46:00 PM »
I agree with you.
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Offline Pennsyltuckey pete

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Re: Selfbows and efficiency
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2010, 11:29:00 PM »
It is a well placed arrow that is going to make the kill.  Not FPS>>>>-------------------------->

Heck, My self bow is so slow I have to lead my deer by two days!

Now all kidding aside, My selfbows shoot plenty fast to kill a deer with a good hit at 20 yards.  I have only choreographed one of my self bows and it was at 164 fps.  This was a 58# longbow made from black locust.

pete
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Offline Pat B

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Re: Selfbows and efficiency
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2010, 11:44:00 PM »
Bona, a few years ago I shot one of my selfbows through a chrono. I was so disappointed with the numbers I have not and probably will never do it again. I am certain that my bows will kill a deer or elk size animal within my comfort zone. After building and shooting bows over the years I now can tell with the first shot of a bow whether it will be a shooter or a good shooter. They are all shooters! d;^)
  It all comes down to bow design and using the proper wood for that design. There are a few things you can do with that design to "tweek" it so you get the most out of it. Lower limb tip mass is one but considering string weight can also add to the performance. Belly tempering is another way to improve performance by increasing the compression strength of a limb which helps to increase the limb's recovery and resists set.
  I like to shoot heavy arrows(600 to 700gr for 55# bow). If, at 20 yards, I can put that arrow in the kill zone that's all that matters to me. But I have realized over the years that my bows have improved because I became more familiar with my medium and it's likes and dislikes.
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Offline b.glass

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Re: Selfbows and efficiency
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2010, 07:29:00 AM »
I don't have a chronograph either, but I went to Mojam once, it was like the second year, and shot through one with the same experience as Pat.

I thought I had improved with my latest bows. My last one is a 40# @ 26" C style osage flat bow 55" ntn. 1" and 7/16 @ mid limb.

I tried to put reflex in both limbs but the lower limb (which had about an in. of deflex), just would not accept it. The upper limb has about an in. of reflex left. The nocks are 1/2". And it tapers from mid limb out.

It shot 110 yds. but is pretty smooth for a bend in the handle bow. The string is heavier than it needs to be. I will have to weigh the arrow yet but it is probably around 400gr.

It was an iffy stave. I wasn't sure there was enough there to make a hunting weight bow and it was close. I was trying for 50#. I'm still kinda happy with it. It is the first adult weight selfbow that I have made in a while.
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Offline DCM

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Re: Selfbows and efficiency
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2010, 10:35:00 AM »
I find apologists for weak traditional or selfbow performance extrodinarily exasperating.  There is no excuse for below par performance, none.  "If I wanted a fast bow I'd shoot a compound" is just about as assinine as my kids argument "I don't have to do my homework, she never even looks at it."  That said, if YOU make a bow and it shots, then you deserve enormous credit, and you should be very proud.  My point is, this is not a contest, or about any individual, eg. "you," that the bow you prefer or that you made shoots slower than others, it's simply an unbiased assessment.

On to the topic, unbiased assessment is often almost impossible to accomplish.  It's not sufficient to simply use a chrono, for example.  How you shoot a bow can make a dramatic difference, easily enough to mask the bows real performance, either to the "good" side or bad.  So, at a minimum one needs a chrono or two, and a machine to shoot the bow.  Now I realize almost nobody goes to that much effort, but some do and I think it's important to focus upon what they learn or observe, to the exclusion of all the other noise on the topic.

I'm not an expert, but I'll try to relay accurately what I believe, what I've learned and experienced directly, and what I've read.  Some of this actually comes directly from Mojam I, some from the Walk-the-talks boys, some from one of Norbert Mulhaney's assessments posts at AL Adcocks site.

A common and practical way to compare bows accross a wide range of draw weight is to settle upon a standard.  "AMO" or now perhaps ATA standard has been 60#, 540g (9 gpp) @ 30".  Most find that a little on the extreme side and have settled on a measure of an arrow weighing 10 grains at 28".  That's I think where the Mojam paradigm, 50# bow, 500g arrow, 150 fps thing comes from.  Unfortunately folks are real particular about regulating power stroke, or string mass which are also very relevant.  I like to use 21" power stroke (28" draw and 7" brace) as a reasonable standard, and low stretch string whether linen or other.  

Given the standard conditions offered above, and assuming ideal moisture content of say 7% (a most frequently overlooked factor) a selfbow, no sinew just straight selfbow ought to shoot 10 grains per pound at 150 fps, 165 would be excellent, and I suppose one could conjecture 135 would be the other end of that "bell curve."

Since everybody shoots a slightly different setup than the standard, rule of thumb adjustments can be made.  For example, each inch of power stroke is worth about 6 or 7 fps.  Each 1 gpp (60# bow, 540 grain arrow vs 600 grain arrow) is worth about 12 fps.  My experience has been 1% of MC is worth about 5 fps depending.  Linen or low stretch string about 5 to 10 fps.

Aside from the obvious, good materials, sound design (including low mass, stiff outer limbs), effective moisture control, good limb timing or "tiller", the one thing I have found which will improve cast perhaps more than any other aspect is to always stay within the elastic limits of the material, throughout the entire building process.  Also, or more or less being redundant, this also includes (actually excludes) the practice needlessly overworking the bow, so called "working in" tillering adjustments.  I accept the fact the this concept is beyond many folks ability to concieve, or as likely reluctance to accept, but the difference can be amazing, like another 10 fps on a typical project.  Once, or if, you put your mind to it, you'll find it not trivial to get 10 fps, or even 5 fps, over "standard." cast.

I'll close by admitting my first MoJam, which I think was Mojam II actually, I had the same experience.  Mine was more about the look of the bows, rather than the cast, but the cast too.  I don't recall ever being as embarassed, ashamed even, of my work when I saw what could be done with natural material.  That I could make a bow that would not break with repeated use was, I first thought, a real accomplishment.  I was proud as all getout.  I had no idea this was, on the grander scale of reality, not even a relevant measure.  Not to belittle the craft, a newbies first bow is an enormous accomplishment, something one should be proud of.  But with rare exceptions, there is always room for improvement upon that first project, usually lots and lots of room for improvement.  

I honestly don't think most selfbowyers really have anything to be worried about.  135 fps is not a "bad" number, but I'd imagine pretty common.  Given another inch of draw, a decent string, a point of moisture content, etc. that could easily equate to the "standard" 150 fps or more.

Offline soopernate

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Re: Selfbows and efficiency
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2010, 11:39:00 AM »
I think a good standard for comparison of a self bow is that it should shoot at its weight plus 100 FPS (a fifty pound bow would shoot 150FPS) with a 10 grain per pound arrow.  Anything less is substandard and anything more above standard.  Dont get me wrong though, its not always about how fast but it IS a good measure of how well you tillered and how efficient your weapon is.
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Offline b.glass

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Re: Selfbows and efficiency
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2010, 11:47:00 AM »
I think my first thoughts on efficiency were guided by Paul Comstock in The Bent Stick. As I recall, he said that in Ohio a bow HAS to shoot a certain number of yards per draw weight and with a 425 grain arrow to be legal. What ever it is exactly, it made sense to me.

I've been referring to TBBIV for advise on improving. The speeds they get out of some of the bows documented there is amazing. I'm not after those kinds of speed, just something "respectable". And I'm talking hunting weight arrows. I'm not a flight shooter. Nothing wrong with it, it's just that I'm a hunter. The arrow I used was used because of it's spine. It was the closest I had on hand to test it with.
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Offline John Scifres

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Re: Selfbows and efficiency
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2010, 12:35:00 PM »
I don't care a lick about speed but I do want to have an efficient bow.  That's because I don't like shooting more than 50#.  I also want the arrow to go though a deer.  The more efficient I can make the bow, the lower weight I can shoot through a deer.  

That being said, I was at MOJam I and had a heck of a good time watching the bow testing.  I mean Joe Mattingly, Jim Hamm, and Tim Baker all standing there testing bows.  What fun!  The fact that my first sinew backed bow shot over 150 felt pretty good too.  Baker's second string whitewood bow was the most efficient.  Course he'd built like a 1000 bows so I guess that makes sense  :)

Mims hit the high points on making a bow efficient.  But the bottom line is the best way is to build lots of bows.  You get better at tillering and the tillering process, you don't kill a bow's spirit before it is done, you pay attention to details and you understand things better.  A natural craftsperson will build a better first bow than opthers but anyone, given time and experience will build a good bow if they want to.

Bowmaking season is coming up.  I got the shop cleaned up after butchering a couple gun kills.  I have 2 bows to finish and then I'm off to the races on bettering my skills.  Stop by Bona.  I'm there most Saturdays after hunting season.
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Offline deadpool

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Re: Selfbows and efficiency
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2010, 01:02:00 PM »
would my red oak bow be efficient then? i only had the chance to shoot arrows that were 12.38g per lb. shooting at speeds of 134fps out of a 42lb @28" bow,  also would spine effect the bows performance? though they were waaaaaaaay over spined for my bow they shot pretty well from it.

Offline b.glass

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Re: Selfbows and efficiency
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2010, 04:32:00 PM »
That sounds to me like a pretty efficient bow deadpool. Is this bow center shot? It sounds like it's shooting alot better than my osage bow and it's only two pounds heavier. My bow's handle is the same width as the mid limb.
B.Glass, aka Mom, aka Longbowwoman
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Mark 5:36 "Don't be afraid, just believe".

Offline b.glass

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Re: Selfbows and efficiency
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2010, 04:34:00 PM »
John I would reeeally like to get with you a few times for some bow learn'n.   :archer2:
B.Glass, aka Mom, aka Longbowwoman
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Offline deadpool

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Re: Selfbows and efficiency
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2010, 04:34:00 PM »
the bow is not center shot, i have a post "bow gods gave me a break" with pics and video of my bow, you describe your bow to be almost the same as mine, just a stick really

Offline Stiks-n-Strings

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Re: Selfbows and efficiency
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2010, 08:31:00 PM »
Bona,

 I figure if I can build a bow that put's them where I want them and hits hard it's plenty efficient. I kinda figure that's how the indians did it cause I'm sure they didn't have any chronies.

 It is nice to know what your bow is shooting as far as speed, more of a curiosity thing for me cause I judge them by what I see and feel. If it shoots good and hard and feels good in the hand it's as efficient as I need.

 Stiks
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Offline Pete W

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Re: Selfbows and efficiency
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2010, 04:14:00 PM »
I just started into the wonderfull world of building self bows.  I don't care to much about how fast they are, like many of you.I do want to make a bow as good as I can, in feel, looks and performance.all 3 are important to progress..If I want fast I go the rack and take down a truly fast longbow or recurve.
That said I do chrono each bow just for my own knowledge.
 My first consideration is how it feels when I shoot it. I want a pleasant experience. I do want to know if changes I made from bow to bow, wood to wood , tiller ,strings etc are for the good or bad. We all try to make a better bow each time we build one.
 The human eye can not pick up small gains or losses, and 10 FPS is hard to judge.5FPS is impossible.
 The evil chrony is just a good tool to measure your progress, and without it you are just guessing.
  I have shot bows that felt faster than they were, and some that were faster than they felt. Numbers don't lie, and they give us facts to work with.
 The most usefull  thing a chrony will give us is a consistant draw/release. Shoot the same arrow 10 times thru one and look at the spread.
It is common to see over 10 FPS spread, and up to 20FPSis not unheard of at all.When you can get your self down to 1,2 or 3 FPS spread you are consistant.
 For a hundred bucks you can get a great teaching aid, for both your bowyering skill, and your shooting skill.
 If the numbers you see bother you, then at heart you realy "do care" what they are.
 If we don't measuer things we are quite possible leaving some good changes on the table that can add up to a big improvement and incorporating some changes that should be left on the table.
 The chrony,  is just another tool that can help us improve on our bows and skills.

 Pete
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Offline Rattus58

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Re: Selfbows and efficiency
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2010, 05:03:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pennsyltuckey pete:
 It is a well placed arrow that is going to make the kill.  Not FPS>>>>-------------------------->

Heck, My self bow is so slow I have to lead my deer by two days!
 
Now all kidding aside, My selfbows shoot plenty fast to kill a deer with a good hit at 20 yards.  I have only choreographed one of my self bows and it was at 164 fps.  This was a 58# longbow made from black locust.

pete
Hahahaha..... two days..wonder what building one here in the tropics then might bring....    :biglaugh:  

Aloha...   :archer2:

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