All wood laminated bow info?

[stringstretcher]

I know for one, myself, it is very difficult to decide what bow woods make decent bows, or for that matter a bow at all.  Everytime you see a new bow up, you always hear about what woods were used, what design and what deminsions the bow was cut to.  But you never hear or see info about lam thickness or wheather the limbs had to be trapped or if the intended bow came out to the specs one wanted.

For anyone else interested, how about getting me some info on "ALL WOOD" to include bamboo, and give me some exact deminsions of the wood you used, the glue, the design, the core woods, backing, belly woods, and I will compile all this info on an excell spread sheet and offer it to anyone who is interesed.

Maybe we could make this a sticky later.  But I for one, could narrow down what woods, what lam thickness, tapers, widths, lengths, etc to make a bow that would come out somewhat close without nothing but trial and error.  By the responses on this thread, I will create a new email just for the info in anyone is interested.

Since I will be having some time on my hands and what seems to be a lot of sitting down, this could be a great thing to offer new bowyers as well as old that want to try something different.

Let me know your thoughts and interest, but please keep it here on the thread, and not via PM. And if anyone decides to email me, please include your handle on here rather than sending an email that I have no idea who you might be.

If enough info is gathered, it could even become a nice printed binded notebook.  So what you say, think it would be worth it to help others as well as learn more without wasting a lot of wood and work unnecessary?

[Green]

Great idea Charlie.  For those of us who contemplate building a laminated bow in the future this would be a great reference.  Thanks!

[Pat B]

Charlie, the deal with lam bows is in the design and make up just like with a glass bow. The recipe of the stack and the bows shape determines the bow. The reason David Knight's bows are so successful is because after making many many bows and experimenting with many many combos of wood and design he has come up with an almost perfect wood/design combo. Most of David's bows are shootable right off the form. It only takes a little tweeking in most cases to achieve perfect tiller.

[stringstretcher]

I know the design of the wood makes all the differences in the world.  Rather what I am looking for to gain info on is how much wood is used, of what kind in those designs.  Every time I see a bow made the answers are always the same.  "here is my new bow, hickory backed rea oak, 66 NTN with 2 " of reflex added at glue up"  Was shooting for 60 lbs but came it at 52 lbs. It is 1 1/2" at the fades tapering to 3/8 tip."  

Now that is just fine and tells me everything about the design.  But how much wood of each did he use to not get his draw weight?  Were they tapered laminations or parallel??  I guess Pat I am looking for info to combine looking at wood deminsions of the lams to compare to see what weight any given starting point might yeild.

[Pat B]

Charlie the same bow you just discribed but with osage instead of red oak could easily be 60# or more.  If you use hickory for your backing and osage for the belly almost any other bow wood will work for a core lam. For color contrast try black walnut or if the color contrast doesn't matter use hickory, elm, maple or other whitewoods or you could use osage, mulberry or yew.
  For multi lam bows you will have to experiment with different thicknesses, different tapers or just parrallel and different lengths for each back profile you want in each draw length and weight. You will have to make lots of bows to see which one works best for your design.
  The nice thing about a simple backed bow or a self bow is you just take off belly wood until you get the tiller and draw weight you want. With lam bows you figure all that out as close as possible before glue-up. I'm assuming that is where you are now in your process.

[magnus]

Charlie I'll get you some info this eve. I like the concept. Kinda like a Stu's calulater for bow making. We'll call it Charlie's spec's. Lol.

[stringstretcher]

I don't really think I will get the kind of info to compile something that big magnus, just looking for some helpfull info for down the road, and the more the better.

[JSMOFFITT03]

I like the idea...  I'm new to building and would love a info reference manual like this...   Great idea,  I could be stickied  like the newbie to trad archery tab/ link but for builders.....

It could be like a working database or reference log

[eflanders]

Pat is right.  All I have built are laminated all-wood bows and each wood combination makes a difference.  The thickness of each lam, the placement order, the tapers used, whether a lam is heat treated all make a difference in the final weight in addition to the total limb width and taper from fade to tip.  This is not something I believe a lot of bowyers are willing to share as it has taken them years and many bows to compile their favorite recipes.

[stringstretcher]

Yeah eflanders, asking for this type of info is like asking where people get their mushrooms.  I was just hopeing that some might share so that new people to the bow making world would not spend hard earned money, time, and getting discouraged from making bows because they have no idea where to start.  But I do understand the secrecy of the art, just like when I was in the business, no reason to tell you how to do something if it took money out of my pocket.  But 99 per cent of the time,  I shared instead of charging.  Oh well, I guess after I make enough, I will have all the info I need.  It was just a thought, that's all.

[crgibson]

I like the idea. Myself I'm green at bow building and would like to see a simple guild I could reference on best backing wood combos, What works with what so I don't overpower belly wood.

Thanks Charlie keep up the good work, Crg

[SEMO_HUNTER]

That is a good idea Charlie, but for myself or other guys like me who are still in the experimentation stages I really don't have a set pattern or dimensions for my bows yet. I'm still taking little bits of info that I find from other guy's builds and piecing them together to suit my own needs. I am learning what works and what doesn't with each build trying to make the next one better than the one before it.

In a nutshell, I'm trying to find my niche in the bow building world so I can reach the point where I just "Know" what each dimension boo thickness, belly thickness, handle lamination thickness, width, length, ect. will yield for a completed bow. I'm almost there, but probably another couple bows out from reaching my goal.

I'm gonna say something here that some guys may not like or particularly agree with, but I'll just spit it out there.

I've come to the point in what I like to build and what I enjoy building and what shoots like I want it to that I am gravitating away from all wood selfbows made from a single stave. I've already been there, done that. I want to step up to the next level now.

I am however still building and intend to build all wood bows, but they are going to be a basic 3 stack design with a backing, a belly, and a handle all glued together and then finished that way.
Example would be a bamboo backing, with osage or Ipe belly, and osage, walnut, maple, or white oak handle lam.
That's about as far as I plan to take it, and just want to perfect that process until I can master it. At least that's the plan anyway.

When I get there I'll be more than happy to add some useful info to your spreadsheet.

[eflanders]

I have and continue to learn a lot from this and other websites.  I was able to glean enough information off of all of them to at least get a decent start.  I've learned to build a bow, a string and everything needed to shoot traditional.  For this I am eternally greatful.

Certain common "board" woods are better than others depending upon where they are placed in the stack. Commonly found and used backing woods are: Hickory and Bamboo.  Both woods can be heat treated to gain speed and recovery.  You can use most any wood for the core as it does the least work but Walnut and Red Elm and Bamboo flooring are quite common here.  Belly woods must be strong in compression.  Maple, Black Cherry are again quite common.

One basic all-wood stack goes like this:
All are 1/8" thick parallel lams.  Width of riser = 1-1/2".  Riser length = 18". Tip width = 1/2".  Taper the limbs from the end of the riser to the tips. Back of Hickory, Core of Walnut, Belly of Black /Cherry.  Determine your overall bow length by your draw length (28" draw = 62"-64" bow length). Use Titebond III or Urac 185 glue.  This "recipe" will make either a Hill style or a R/D bow.   If it is a Hill style (flat form), your bow should end up about 40#.  Adding heat-treat, gluing in R/D, etc. will all add to the poundage.

I've actually got several "working" spreadsheets
going.  These are my logs of what worked and what didn't and why.  These are critical in your learning.  Don't forget to log what you did, why you did it and the times you allowed for various operations. Give it a go, log your experiments, good luck and post up your results!

[stringstretcher]

Here is my latest results.
All parallel lam bow with 4 lamination's
Lamination's spliced in the middle and bow glued up to a length of 72"
3" of reflex at 72" leaving me 2 1/2" at 66" final length
All lamination's were .110 thousandths, or 1/64 under 1/8"
Backing of hickory, all other lams were Osage.
Backing laid down, two Osage lams, then the handle and the last lam on over the handle fades.
The width of the lams were exactly 1.410 thousandths or a little shy of 7/16.
12" handle tapered from the tip of the fades to 4" for the handle.
Limbs were tapered from the fades to 3/8"

This wood combo yielded me a 38lb bow with a 5 1/2" brace height pulled to 26" at the length of 72"
After piking the bow to 66" it came in to a weight of 42.5lbs at 26.
Now my goal was to build a bow between 40-50 lbs at 26" draw which I got

But using all parallel lams, the limbs do not have the bends I am looking for from fades out to tip, so I will make one now with a parallel backing, one parallel Osage and two tapered lams of .001 per inch and see what I get.

I also plan on trying to incorporate a power lam in the next one just for insurance on the splice and handle are

[Wildfire]

I have been looking for this kind of information everywhere!  I am about to embark on my first lam build and wanted to go all wood.  

Been looking for info on how thick to make each lam, how much to taper, where to start the taper, which lams to taper, final wood thickness, etc and it is like all that info is secret (though why it would need to be is beyond me).

This info is very helpful and I plan on posting the results of whatever I end up doing so it can help others.

Here is my plan for my first bows.  It'd be great to have suggestions or a resource on lam thicknesses and tapers.

Hickory (back)
Cherry
Maple
Osage (belly)

Hickory (back)
Black Locust
Maple (belly)