Another newb bowyer tryin' again

[Venger]

Okay, so I finally managed to get a tree split with out any mishap. It only took 4 attempts with various trees, but i finally got it.
Now, I have read that cedar makes a decent bow, and because I know that it grows around where I live in fairly large quantities, I went with it. Eastern red cedar is what I have on hand right now. I split it in half yesterday and sealed the ends and back. It is pretty straight, but a bit short, somewhere along the 5 foot mark (not sure on exact dimensions).
A few questions. 1: The stave split straight, but is very fibrous. It didn't split clean. A few fiber are sticking out. Should I take the hatchet to it and chop it down to a smooth surface now, or wait a few months when it is better seasoned? 2: Any pros or cons I should know about when working with eastern red cedar? Like i said, I have read that cedar makes good bows, but it just that vague. All it mentioned was "cedar". May I assume that any type of cedar will work just fine? And 3: what sort of dimensions would you guys suggest for the limbs/handle/tips?

Thanks for your help in advance. I mean to stick around long enough and learn enough to where I shall be giving advice and help one day, rather than just asking for it.

I will get pics and exact stave dimensions in my next post.

-Venger

[Osagetree]

No experience with cedar but I am sure the red is what you need. The rough split is okay too.

Others will soon chime in I am sure.

[mwosborn]

From my limited experience - cedar can be somewhat difficult.  Many guys using cedar end up backing it with something else.  It may be easier to pick one of the white woods to start out on - ash, hickory, hackberry, etc.

But at the same time you have the cedar so just as well giver a try.  I would make the limbs a bit wider from fades to midlimb (2") and then taper to tip.

I am sure some experts will give you some advice on cedar also.

Good luck

[Venger]

Thanks for the tips guys. And I will definitely look into a white wood bow. But i think oak is the only option I have in that group. Do you guys know of any one particular oak that works best?

And like said earlier, here are my staves pics and dimensions.

Each stave is about 5 foot long. One is exactly, but one will be several inches shorter, due to a knot right at the end that I will have to cut off.
 

These both came out remarkably straight. And I didn't have to do nearly as much searching as I thought i would. I shoud be able to get two shots at making a selfbow with this tree.
 

However, during the chopping down process, which I did with an axe, I had a minor mishap that resulted in the bark and several outer layers of the tree peeling off. It shouldn't be an issue, or at least i hope it won't, but I won't actually know til some 2 or 3 months from now when it has dried properly and I get to work on it in full.
 

And here is that knot i spoke of earlier. Fortunately it is right at the end, so it just has to be chopped. Admittedly this will mean that these two, if they succeed, will be kid bows, but no problems there. I know of several young'uns that would be more than thrilled to have there own bow.
 

[hova]

thats gorgeous. search on paleo planet as well. there is a lot of information on cedar bows. i dont recall seeing much here on tg...


-hov

[coaster500]

Wow if you can pull it off the finished product should look spectacular!!!

Good luck  

[KellyG]

That is some really nice looking wood there. I don't think that knot will be a problem if you lay out your bow so the tip misses it. I think you will have to use sap wood and heart wood on any bow made of it. I am not too sure but that is my guess. I hope some of them that have worked with ERC pop in. From what I remember reading. Easter cedar works but not western. Look up juniper bows also because it is a juniper.
Hope some of this helps.
Kelly

[dmikeyj]

I have been working towards an ERC bow as well, and am going the route of heart and sapwood ELB, Likely linen backed.  From what info I have gathered already, backing your bow is likely going to be necessary.
I am also going to work on some flatbow types, using hickory for backing.

On the flatbow, a pyramid type with 2-2.25" width at the widest, tapered to 7/16-1/2" tips should work as a start, may be able to get away with less width, but until I have tried myself, can't really say.

By the way, that wood looks nice, the tree I took down was more splintered than yours at the splits.  Compared, yours looks alot less "fibrous" than mine.

Good luck,
Mike

[longbowray]

Call Ed Scott from owl bow .

[Venger]

Okay guys, here we are one month later with my ERC stave and the time has come to cut it to rough shape. And I got to say, it is shaping up fabulously. And even though I might sound crazy saying this, I think the girl actually WANTS to be a bow. For example I was carefully whacking away at her with the hatchet when all of a sudden I go a little too deep and a fair sized strip peels away. Of course, instantly I panick. Doing my best to stay calm though I sight down the stave to see just how much damage I did. AS it was I did none amazingly. In fact that strip peeled away was a good thing as I had gotten a little out of canter in regard to being straight and square. Not saying I am reckless or anything, but this example occurred at least half a dozen times, all the time getting me closer to the desired shape and thickness. She even seems to let the shavings fall right off of her.
Like I side, perhaps I am a bit nuts, but after seeing how she responds to a rough shaving, I can't wait to see her perform as a full fledged bow.

I do have a few questions though in regard to the specific dimensions of the bow. Right now the width of the bow on its belly is 1.75" across, and just nearly that from a side view. (for totally winging it by eye, I impressed even myself how close to square I got the thing.) The over all length is 59.5". I mean to make this bow for a young friend of mine, due to the initially short length of the stave when I cut it down. Fortunately for him his draw length falls right in the sweet spot of the bow at 20.4".
The part i need answers on is limb dimensions. Foremost is there some sort of equation o formula I can use on my own for later use, or is it something that is more or less guessed upon based on the wood and the experience of the bowyer? How wide and how thick should the limbs be? What of handle to limb taper? I don't know about poundage yet, but definitely nothing more than 25-30#.

Unfortunately I do not have pictures of the stave roughed out yet, but I will get them and post them whenever I can. As always thanks for your endless help. Without it I would have only firewood and kindling. Thanks a million.

[Venger]

Oh yeah, I plum forgot, thanks Hova for the suggestion to check out Paleo planet. I love that place! Tons of helpful info, and it gave me a much better understanding of eastern red cedar as a whole. Thanks buddy!

[LittleBen]

Venger: erc is a juniper. True cedars are crap bow wood. Junipers are fantastic. I just finished an erc flatbow that's posted in this forum. You can work around any holes of knots you need to. From looking at your staves I'd say if you want the heartwood in the limbs you'll need to decrown the back and back it with something. Rawhide will work. Hickory also will work and looks nice bug keep it at no more than 1/8th thick I'd guess. I say this just because the sapwood looks fairly thick. For a hunting weight bow of erc I'd recommend length equal to archer height and 2" wide limbs for 1/2 then taper to the tips.

[LittleBen]

Venger: erc is a juniper. True cedars are crap bow wood. Junipers are fantastic. I just finished an erc flatbow that's posted in this forum. You can work around any holes of knots you need to. From looking at your staves I'd say if you want the heartwood in the limbs you'll need to decrown the back and back it with something. Rawhide will work. Hickory also will work and looks nice bug keep it at no more than 1/8th thick I'd guess. I say this just because the sapwood looks fairly thick. For a hunting weight bow of erc I'd recommend length equal to archer height and 2" wide limbs for 1/2 then taper to the tips.

[Venger]

Because I always seem to forget,the | portion of the stave, the heart wood, is the back, while the ) portion, or sapwood is the belly, right? Or is that backwards...

I saw your erc bow Ben. it looks awesome! I always get a bit daunted when I think of working around knots, but I have seen many successful bows that had loads of 'em, so I know it isn't impossible.

Would you still recommend those same bow dimensions that you sued for a bow that is 3" shorter?

[dmikeyj]

Heartwood belly, sapwood back in every case I've ever seen...

[LittleBen]

Veneer; depends on the draw weight/ length. For hunting weight you'll need to go at least 2.5*draw length for the now length. TBB recommends >1 7/8" width for red cedar. I'd stick with 2" for a good portion of thd limb and taper to tips. If you're making lighter bows ... You can decrease length and/or width a little from that. Longer and wider is safer though. Best of luck. Any other q's just ask.

[Venger]

Originally posted by dmikeyj:
Heartwood belly, sapwood back in every case I've ever seen...

Thanks Mike. I know it might be a stupid question, but for me it is like trying to remember the difference between stalagmites and stalactites.

Thanks Ben. I think I'll go with that 2". It might be a little wide for the kid bow I am making, but hey, I can always take more off if it is to wide. Not so easy to add more wood on though.

Any tips an tip width? I was thinking maybe half an inch or so...