making my 1st bow: osage, need suggestions

[CGB]

Hello everyone, I'm new to the site and to bow making as well. This is my  very first bow  to make, my hunting bow was also  Osage , 62", 48 pounds at my 30" draw, but it broke on me in the woods the other day and I am on a mission to complete this bow so I can be back in the woods with it ASAP. I got this osage stave from a buddy who made my last bow. I was not able to stay at the first good layer of heartwood as there were a few grub/wormholes to get below, not was forced to go down at least three more growth rings.. I'm satisfied with the shape and length (68"), but I'm concerned about a couple of things and I would love to hear yalls suggestions on it before i tiller.
1. I've been under the impression that you should never split a knot, however the knot in handle I ended up cutting through to shape to a comfortable size. I was under the impression that compromised knots in a handle should not adversely affect the bow especially if wrapped with sinew, which I plan to do.
2. It was very difficult for me to maintain 1 growth ring only for the entire back, and there is one small area on edge in the handle that exposes a shallower ring, and  another area on the edge on upper limb that very slightly exposes two shallower rings... I understand that this would be ok as long as I sinew back?.. Im very bothered by this and would much rather go back and fix it but I do not have the room, and do not want to make another mistake that would compromise it further.-- is it safe to tiller in this condition? whenever i apply sinew should I wrap it around the affected portion of the limb or just apply to the back?
3. There is a knot on the edge of the lower limb as seen in the pic.. is it possible that I can cut this knot out entirely and still have a nice taper to the tip without losing too much surface area?
It is currently 68 inches long, and I'm hoping that by the end it will pull between 55 and 60 pounds.

I certainly appreciate all comments and suggestions, I'm very excited about this bow and I do not want to screw it up, or make it sub par, even though I keep hearing that everyone's first few bows are usually botched in some way.

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[mikkekeswick]

You really should have one ring for the whole back. Osage is a heck of a bow wood but it won't take a 30inch draw with a violated back. If you are going to sinew it then yes it should be fine. Aim to use around 2 2 1/2 oz of sinew - do not wrap the limbs lay it on like a proper backing. Get one thin layer covering the whole limb width then use the rest down the center of the limb to make it well crowned.
It's hard to say for sure but it looks like you may be able to remove the remnants of that lower limb knot when you reduce the tip width.
I personally don't like the look of the wood in the handle area but without a better look it's hard to say whats going on there.
Don't cut that shelf any deeper as it will make a potentially bow breaking weakness. Much better to keep the shelf cut in to a minimum and then add leather to the side to build a shelf up instead. This then gets shaped and hidden under your handle wrap.
As for tillering get your sinew on quickly(if you want to be shooting it anytime soon!), make the layers no thicker than an 1/16th and give each layer a week to dry before adding the next. If you put it all on at once then it will take exponentially longer to dry.
If you need a bow to get back in the woods with in a hurry I recommend buying a maple board and making a simple pyramid bow. These shoot great and are very easy to make/tiller. You could have one shooting in an afternoons work. If you are interested in this way of doing it I can give you more details.

[CGB]

Thank you Mikkekeswick,duly noted all around. Just to verify, you recommend 2 - 2.5 oz of sinew or 22.5 Oz?  I'm definitely interested in your plans for a quick bow I can make in afternoon... theyre rutting right now and I'm anxious to get back in the woods without my rifle, but I sure will if I can't get one made quickly.... thanks again

[Carson81]

Mike has provided some good advice.

I would just add that you want to be more cautious in shaping your fades (the transition from handle to limb). I see on this one that the limb has not reached full width before the thickness has dropped to a working limb thickness. this can become a hinge, and when it coincides with a violated growth ring on top, it can become a breaking point.

Good luck getting after those rutty bucks with a wood bow!

[CGB]

Alright... got to work on the bow over the last few weeks off and on and I believe I'm almost done.  Instead of sinew I backed it with rawhide which turned out nice. I had a problem with the upper limb tip, I was heat treating the belly and overdid it a little bit and was forced to reduce the limb by a few inches because I was unsure of how the overcharred wood would hold up I went ahead and cut off the affected portion of the tip. Total length tip to tip is 63 inches, (61" NTN). I have strung and tillered the bow and it is pulling 75 pounds at 30". I still have a few questions and concerns; i appreciate all comments and suggestions.

1- Tiller: I am pleased with the upper limb shape, but cannot figure out how to bring the lower limb into symmetry... where exactly would I reduce?

2- heat treatment: only the upper limb tip was "heat treated", and this was an accident / screw up on my part while trying to recurve tips using a boiling pot of water that ran out of water... this was no laughing matter at the time, I was so mad thought I was going to throw it in the fire... But ive moved past it and have fixed the problem by removing the burned wood and leaving only a light char.  This being the case, do I now need to heat treat (carefully) the rest of the bow, or just the lower limb tip, or nothing at all... if I treated the lower limb tip could that help with the tillered shape by stiffening the belly?

3- Deflex: should I try to add some deflex with steam into the handle area (see angle/shape of the upper limb leaving handle fades), can this even be done because of the rawhide backing/glue (titebond II). Or should I not even worry about it?

4- Rawhide edge blending: at the tips and a couple other areas I have blended the rawhide into the side of the bow for additional strength, is this okay or will it cause a problem?

5- Draw Weight: I was originally hoping for around 60 pounds but i do not mind being around 70#.. after fixing the lower limb tiller should I stop, will this bow lose any draw weight over time?

Thanks again,
-CGB

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[Pat B]

Bad hinge in the bottom limb. You shouldn't pull to full draw until you know that both limbs are bending evenly and together.
 If you build a bow properly and exercise after each wood removal and sweat the bow some after first brace it shouldn't loose much weight if any at all when you are done.

[LittleBen]

Top limb looks good, but there is a very severe and obvious hinge in the bottom limb.

Get that bottom limb bending evenly and see where you stand.

[mikkekeswick]

That's toast in my opinion. Don't get me wrong you can still get a shooting bow but you are going to be lucky to get 40# once you have that hinge fixed. The real problem is that that area  has been worked way too hard and its already the thin spot.
Making bows quickly is never a good idea (!)but what I was talking about before was making whats called a pyramid bow from a board. You must get a very straight grained board but it's pretty easy to make a pyramid bow if you start with good material. Maple, white oak or hickory boards are easy enough to find and will all make a serviceable bow for you to get out in the woods with. Backing with rawhide is a good idea too.

[CGB]

Thank y'all...definitely sounds worse then I thought, how do I fix the hinge, where do I remove more wood from? Sorry for the beginner questions, just wanna do it right without misinterpretation. What typically happens if you shoot a bow with a similar hinge?

[Nezwin]

There's no fixing that bow, best get a new stave & start from scratch.

61# @ 30" is too short a bow - for a 30" draw without recurving the tips I'd go for a minimum of 68", probably more. You'll get horrendous stacking otherwise.

The tiller is way off. Because it's such a short bow the bottom limb has accentuated the hinging, but it's actually on both limbs, to varying degrees. Your bend is almost entirely in the middle-third of the limb - the limb needs to bend evenly throughout its entire length for a bow of this type. The outer third of your limb has almost no bend at all.

By bringing it to 30" draw with the tiller so off, undue pressure has been localised on areas of the belly, which will make removing the hinge that much more difficult. If you were to remove wood from everywhere BUT the hinge you would drop significant poundage, probably to around 30-40lb @ 28".

If you keep using that bow, it will explode after less than 1000 shots, I'd reckon. Back to the drawing board, better luck next time.

[Se1F6ow27]

If I were you I would go ahead and finish the bow and tiller it out right. Only because that will help with the next bow you tiller. No matter how many I messed up in the beginning, I always tillered them out to get that practice in, even if its a 25lb bow in the end. If you sinew-backed it, it could potentially help, but use your sinew on a good stave.

[CGB]

Wow, I appreciate your comment Nezwin more than you can imagine.  If this bow can make just 100 shots before failing then I'll be more than satisfied. As I stated from the beginning of this post my goal was to create a working bow (from my stave) that I can kill a good old buck I've been chasing for the last few years. Spent a lot of time on this bow and I know it's my first one to build, but I knew it wasn't gonna be entirely flawless... more than anything I'm glad I didn't have the chance to touch this bow right after I read all the other comments because if I ended up reducing the draw weight below 40# just to remove the hinge that will probably last through the end of the January at least I'd be furious. And I sure don't have the time to build another bow right now, but I plan on doing it after season. One day I'll get to where I can build one near yalls level, but I need function right now. I imagine  a lil hinge  sure wouldn't make the Comanches quit a bow and it was used till it finally broke. All things said, can anyone give me time/shots fired approximations (for bois d'arc) before breaking/failure as to:

- self backed with violated growth ring
- limb with similar hinge
- 58"-64" bow with 30" draw (50# minimum)
     *self backed
     *sinew backed
     *rawhide backed

Thanks again----CGB

[John Scifres]

That's how we learn.  Osage is tough as hell so you can probably shoot it this season.  It will need fixed or it will just fold up eventually.

A well built and designed osage selfbow will last a very long time.  I have a couple that have 10's of thousands of shots through them over 15 years.

A violated growth ring could blow any time.  I'd sinew wrap it.

A hinge could fold any time but that one probably won't since it is spread out over a decent length.

[mikkekeswick]

You are thinking about it the wrong way. That bow will break at some point - nobody knows when as you are dealing with a natural material and not an homogeneous man made material. The Comanches wouldn't have made a hinged bow because they would have had plenty of other people about who could have helped! When a bow breaks it can seriously hurt you so I doubt very much whether they or anybody else would use a badly hinged bow as it's a ticking timebomb! Trust me that ain't no 'lil hinge'.
You wanna make a quicky wood bow??? Then make a pyramid bow from a straight grained board. An osage stave is at the other end of the spectrum!
One last piece of advice - never try to make a bow quickly as this is invariably what happens unless maybe if you've made a few hundred before!

[Eric Krewson]

You need a tillering gizmo!

 http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=001047#000000

[Nezwin]

Originally posted by CGB:
Wow, I appreciate your comment Nezwin more than you can imagine.  If this bow can make just 100 shots before failing then I'll be more than satisfied. As I stated from the beginning of this post my goal was to create a working bow (from my stave) that I can kill a good old buck I've been chasing for the last few years. Spent a lot of time on this bow and I know it's my first one to build, but I knew it wasn't gonna be entirely flawless... more than anything I'm glad I didn't have the chance to touch this bow right after I read all the other comments because if I ended up reducing the draw weight below 40# just to remove the hinge that will probably last through the end of the January at least I'd be furious. And I sure don't have the time to build another bow right now, but I plan on doing it after season. One day I'll get to where I can build one near yalls level, but I need function right now. I imagine  a lil hinge  sure wouldn't make the Comanches quit a bow and it was used till it finally broke. All things said, can anyone give me time/shots fired approximations (for bois d'arc) before breaking/failure as to:

- self backed with violated growth ring
- limb with similar hinge
- 58"-64" bow with 30" draw (50# minimum)
     *self backed
     *sinew backed
     *rawhide backed

Thanks again----CGB

Sorry mate, I didn't mean to be negative in my first post, I just sometimes come off as a little blunt.

Your actual workmanship, for the most part, is pretty good. Sure, there's area for improvement - like tillering, and the transition into the fades, but for a first shot at bowyering, you could've done worse. One of my earliest bows had a similar hinge in the lower limb, so I know precisely where you're coming from in building that bow.

I'f I had a stave like that I would've nurtured it until I was 100% sure I could get an outstanding bow from it - you're very lucky to have relatively easy access to Osage! But do follow mikkekeswick's advice - get a straight-grained board and build a bow from that. I run courses using Red Oak boards and with the right tools & a little know-how, a bow can be made very quickly & cheaply. I think my record is about an hour, tillered but not fine-sanded/sealed. 68" - 72" ntn would be a far smoother & safer shooter, much easier to tiller.

I, personally, wouldn't be shooting that bow as when it does finally go, it'll go BANG and you could end up with a splinter or two in the eye (or worse - the hinge is at about groin level...). It could be a candidate for a bamboo backing, which would bring the weight up. Having said all that, I'm not overly experienced with Osage and if the guys here think it will hold up, you might be alright. With the timbers we use here in Australia though, that hinge would be a show-stopper.

Can't give you much information on time/arrows shot for a less-than-perfect Osage bow, I'm afraid, but I would suggest that for a 30" draw anything less than probably 70" ntn needs some kind of recurving. It's all in the Bowyers Bibles. As your string angle approaches 90 degrees the limb will start to stack, so you either need to make the bow longer, recurve the tips or reduce the draw length. All of these will reduce the string angle at the tips.

30" is a pretty long draw - and a long draw needs a long bow!