Sore Shoulder from Cheyenne

[buckeye_hunter]

I have to agee on the grip type in regards to pain or discomfort while shooting a bow. For me, recurves are better than longbows in terms of being more comfortable to shoot.  Most longbow grips cause me to have pain in my elbow when shooting them.  I want to shoot longbows, but I love the grip and feel of the draw on recurves.  Wouldn't trade my new Timberhawk Recurve for anything!

-Charlie

[Diamond Paul]

JC: Actual holding weight and stored energy aren't the same thing.  A newer fast compound will be 60 lbs, peak weight, and an older, moderate cam or round wheel compound will also have a 60lb peak weight.  However, because the newer bow gets to peak quicker and holds it longer (little valley), it stores more energy.  It might also lose less energy due to hysteresis (friction) than the older bow (more effecient).  That's why you actually do as much work to pull the newer bow at 60lbs as you do to pull the older bow at 70lbs.  There are only a few things that can make one 53lb recurve faster than another of the same weight: 1. It can be more effecient,i.e., delivers more of the stored energy to the arrow.  2. It has a longer power stroke, which is usually governed by either brace height, or amount of reflex/deflex in the riser.  3.  It catches weight quicker and holds more (a higher percentage) of the peak weight longer.  I know many people post about how the new bow shoots just as fast as the old one at a lesser poundage.  The only way that can be is that it stores the same energy, and that energy can only be stored when you pull it.  You perceive it as "easier" to pull because it has lower peak weight, but you did the same amount of work overall, because you generated the same energy.  Unless the newer bow is delivering a substantially greater percentage of stored energy to the arrow (dynamic efficiency), you do the same work to pull either bow.  I don't see how this principle can be different for a traditional bow as compared to a compound.  JMHO, Paul.

[Diamond Paul]

P.S.:  If the bow has a longer power stroke due to reflex and/or lower brace height, then you are, in effect, working for a longer period of time when pulling it than you are when you pull a high brace/deflexed riser bow.  Hence, though peak weight is the same, you worked longer, thus did more total work in pulling it.  Morrisons do have very low brace heights compared to other recurves.  These are just my observations, your milage may vary.  I do enjoy your posts very much, Paul.

[drewsbow]

O.K.  I'm going to bring up a different point , one that I feel is my personal problem with curves. I feel the extra mass weight is what hurts me , as the arrow leaves the bow the dead weight hangs out there and pulls down harder on my arm . If I shoot a heavy mass curve my shoulder hurts but with low mass lonbow or low mass curve all is well .  Who knows (just mho) Drew

[Seeking Trad Deer]

Just got back from shooting some stumps and lumps with my middle boy using my plain Jane 560 T/D...hit where I was looking and no soreness.  Why can't I just stick to one bow    .  What is it about this traditional bug that I always want to experiment with other bows.  I'm already lining up a Foley or Silver Tip    .  I guess G. Fred Asbell was right in that article a year or two ago about shooting only one bow...what he forgot to mention is how hard it is for some of us to do   :p  .

[JC]

Paul, while it's been years since my engineering classes, if you read my post, I said nothing of "work" being equal...in fact I said "of course force draw curves play a part in how much energy is actually stored".

 
Yep, what you speak of is the energy stored "below the force curve" on the graph....what I am talking about is the static holding weight. "but at the end, both still are holding at the same peak weight."

Holding 50# is still holding 50#....wether it's a compound, a longbow, or a 50# bag of wheat. If you hurt at 50# holding one bow, you are going to hurt 50# at any other...you are still "holding" 50#. If you are hurting more with a bow that has more preload but the holding weight is the same I would offer you have a form problem. The bow shoulder is relatively static during the draw...if it hurts at 9" and 35#, it should hurt even worse at the final 28" @ 50"

"you did the same amount of work overall, because you generated the same energy." Well, I'll disagree again. Same preloads, same force curves, same "work"...bow with materials that are more efficient in releasing the energy (differences in elasticity (carbon can relase it's energy more efficiently than bamboo even if both "store" the same) etc.) and lighter (look at ACS profile or Morrison foam) will be faster.


Good luck Mike, glad you found one that doesn't hurt. But that shooting one bow thing....dang...you sure are asking a lot of a feller!  

[Diamond Paul]

JC: you are absolutely correct, the bow can be much faster if it is more effecient.  However, it's got to be much more effecient to see noticeable speed gains.  If his other bows are modern designs, then I doubt this is the case, in which case the design is storing more energy.  Pain is not a result of the holding weight, but of the effort it's taking him to get there.

[Grant Young]

Tippit-I have found I have the same issues with a high wrist grip. I've started asking Don to knock the palm swell down on just about all my shooters beginning with a styleI B riser takedown and have found it improved the shooting characteristics of the bow considerably. He has two of my Super Kodiaks right now and will lower the wrist on each. I think you made a good point.                                 Grant

[JC]

Originally posted by Diamond Paul:
Pain is not a result of the holding weight, but of the effort it's taking him to get there.

Again, opinions vary on that one. I've had shoulder pain....and it didn't start till I hit peak weight (or at least the last few "'s), not during the draw. When I dropped weight (same limb design out of same bow), the problem went away. Did some PT, went back up to previous weight, everything was hunky dory. So no, pain is not necessarily coming from the effort it takes to get there. Could have just been me, I guess...but that's what I assumed he was speaking of since I've never experienced any other.

And when you say "noticable difference": my genII (2003) morrison recurve limbs were 3fps slower (all gr/# equal) than my genIII (2006) limbs...only change was profile, not materials. The foam core (late 2007) recurve limbs were 2 more fps faster than the genIII limbs, same profile, different materials. 3fps is noticeable, imho...5 is certainly.

Not trying to be argumentative for no reason, but you seem to be relaying some "opinion" as "fact".

[Diamond Paul]

JC: these are just observations based on my experiences in the business of making compounds.  The fastest hand-held bow in the world hangs in our shop (AMO rating): 70lbs, 30".  It gets to 70 in about 3" and stays there till it breaks over at about 29.89".  I can't even think about pulling it!  To say that the effort required to pull this bow is equal to the effort required to pull another 70lb, 30" draw bow can be refuted just by letting someone draw it.  Seems like recurves have to adhere to the same physical principles.  If more energy is imparted to the arrow, either more is stored or the bow is tremendously more efficient in delivering it.  As I said, most of my observations come from prototyping compounds, your milage may vary.  Just offering a possible reason why he is experiencing pain, not a definitive reason.  Keep up the good work, love this forum and the work ya'll do!  Paul.

[JC]

"To say that the effort required to pull this bow is equal to the effort required to pull another 70lb, 30" draw bow can be refuted just by letting someone draw it." On that, we can agree. I was assuming he meant holding weight, not "effort". Yes, if you take materials out of the equation, some bows do store more energy by design and plotting their force curve plainly shows it.

It sounds like "effort" may have been his problem since changing bows fixed it.

[bayoulongbowman]

Drew , just read ur comment and I agree completely...on the mass weight of the bow...but the bottom line , I hope our Tgang buddy , fines some pain free shooting soon ...mark#78

[drewsbow]

Yep , sure is hard to not be able to shoot for some time :0)