Really discouraged (updated with videos)

[Kopper1013]

Hey guys, Ive been shooting soully trad for about 8 years now and coming from a high level of competitive compound shooting I have struggled to get my accuracy to the point I would like but have been making progress in that direction.

My biggest problem right now is ive developed something in my forum that's allowing the string to rec my nose (occasionally) but mostly my lip. I've tried resting my anchor changing my stance, blank bails ect. I've cut all my tabs down I can't find it!! I think I must be turning my head in some how but even when I focus on keeping everything square I'm still tearing my lip off.... in 8 years I haven't had this problem till 2 months ago. It's really sucking the fun out of everything having a raw lip all the time.... do you guys have any thoughts? Things I could try?

[moebow]

Are you laying your head over to the string.  that's a common cause of a problem like yours.

 Stand up straight, set your head up on your shoulders, looking at the target then DO NOT move the head again!!!!  Bring the string to your UNMOVING head, set your anchor then shoot.

This is not a rifle or shotgun that you lay your head over onto the stock.

String comes to YOU, you DON'T go to get it!!

Arne

[McDave]

I've had this problem several times, and wouldn't be surprised if I get it again.  I learned long ago from Arne to keep my head upright when I draw the bow, so I’m sure this isn't the reason I was hitting my face, although it may be a reason in other cases.  I'm really not sure why it went away, either.  I'm pretty sure that if you're using good form you won't hit your face.  These are possible reasons you might be hitting your face:

1.  You need to rotate your head as far toward the target as possible, so it is out of the path of the string.

2.  You need to learn to relax your fingers and let the string push them out of the way.  If you try to open your fingers, the string can be deflected off of them into your face.

3.  You might be holding your string hand too tightly against your face.

4.  You might not be getting your string elbow back behind the arrow.  If it is sticking out to the side, it can deflect the string into your face.

5. If you are torquing the string or creeping, it can cause the string to hit your face.

6.  Once you start hitting your face, you might start flinching your head away from the string.  This will compound the problem.

7.  You might be hitting your face with your tab.  If trimming the tab doesn't work, try using a snugly fitting glove instead.

[YosemiteSam]

If all else fails, try a thumb ring.  The paradox is reversed.

[Sam McMichael]

Just out of curiosity, what is your level of accuracy at this time? More specifically, what is your maximum hunting range? What about group sizes at 15 and 20 yards? It could be possible that you are concentrating so hard on not doing the wrong thing that you tense up and do that wrong thing after all. Relax, you well know that you will never stack them on top of each other as precisely as you did with the compound, but you can still be very effective. While working on this string to the face problem, spend some time on the blank bale and get the form squared away.

I once was talking to an older feloow who is well known for technical studies related to bow hunting, and we were talking about accuracy. In short, his self-analysis was, "Well, I can shoot well enough to kill a deer." Just his way of saying that he keeps most of his arrows in the kill zone at his hunting distances. In the hunting arena, accuracy is better measured in effectiveness than a numerical point score.

In the pointers you received above, mention was made of the possibilty of a tab being too long. That happened to me once and was really a bummer till I figured out what was going on. Hang in ther. Things will work out, so just stay with it. Remember, we all do this for fun. If hunting was the only means of feeding ourselves, we would all shoot a 30.06.

[Roy from Pa]

How about a video of you shooting?

[Kopper1013]

Thanks guys for the suggestions, I'll try them ALL!!!! I'll also try to make a video though I have no idea how to post them but would gladly send them to people via phone to view and critique.

[Roy from Pa]

You would need to upload the video to youtube first. Then copy the url for it and paste it in this thread.

[Kopper1013]

Thanks Roy

Here is my first attempt at this so we'll see

Grouping picture
 https://imgur.com/a/GcIQH

Shot videos
 

 

[moebow]

I watched your videos.  You are pulling past your facial reference points, then sinking forward to let the thumb knuckle move forward to a point behind your ear.  Then you are cuddling up to the string with your head.

 Can you say "loss of ANY/ALL back tension and string hitting the nose????"

The thumb knuckle behind the ear is a poor position and even worse because you move the hand forward to that position.  You loose ANY and all back tension doing that.  So now your shot is "shot."

The head movement forward and back then forward again is what is causing the string on the nose problem.

As I suggested earlier, set your head, looking at the target, then DO NOT MOVE IT AGAIN!!!!!!!

The string hand needs to come to your UN MOVING head WITHOUT EVER MOVING in a forward direction.

Hand comes to the face, the face DOES NOT move to the hand/string!!!

Arne

[Kopper1013]

Ok Arne, I like the anchor on my tooth as it's a very fixed point so where should my thumb be? Or what's your preferred anchor points or points?
I've watched most or all your videos on YouTube but have a tough time seeing how everything tucks in, I've always struggled with a truly consistent anchor so my tooth has been the most consistent...

[moebow]

You are using a facial reference for the draw rather than letting the draw determine where your hand ends up.

First, roll that thumb down HARD into the palm of your hand.  It ends up under the jaw bone, not behind your ear.

Second, with your head moving all over the place, your tooth will be in a different place each shot.

Finally, in the system I teach, you need to find bone on bone structure to hold the bow open THEN the hand will land where it lands.  If on a tooth, OK but it may not too.  Your consistent anchor happens due to arm, shoulder alignment, NOT an arbitrary decision to put your hand "somewhere." Or as you are doing moving your head around until you think you have the hand in position.

For me and again what I teach, the "C" of the hand lands behind the back point of the jaw bone, the thumb is under the jaw bone and the base knuckle of the index finger is tight under the cheek bone.  BUT!!! the hand NEVER moves forward to get this.  Draw set facial references and shoot.

Arne

[Kopper1013]

Ok thanks Arne I'll will put this to work and hopefully post back with good progress in some time.  

[McDave]

For a different perspective from Arne's, and from watching you shoot, you may be more naturally inclined to shoot with a dead release than with a dynamic release.  The main proponent of the dead release today is probably Rick Welch.  If you are interested, you can look up some of his videos on YouTube.

What Arne teaches, the dynamic release, is more in the main stream of modern archery instruction.  Most of what he told you, such as head position and anchor, is applicable to both the dynamic release and the dead release.  However, there are a few things that aren't.  One of the things which is applicable to the dynamic release but not to the dead release is to never move your string hand in a forward direction.  If you watch videos of Rick Welch, you will see that he occasionally moves his string hand forward as he is settling into anchor.

In the dynamic release, back tension is steadily increased throughout the draw and release.  In the dead release, back tension is increased to the point of anchor.  Then, as if shifting a transmission from drive into park, the back tension is locked off while the arrow is being held at full draw.  It is this locking off that causes the hand to stay more or less in place with the dead release, as opposed to the distinct rearward movement of the hand with the dynamic release. There is a moment with the dead release before locking off the back muscles where adjustments can be made without wrecking the shot, such as a slight forward movement of the string hand.  I don't think this is a great idea, as it wastes energy, but at least it doesn't wreck the shot, as it would with the dynamic release.  After locking off the back muscles, no more adjustments can be made, and it is as critical in the dead release as it is in the dynamic release that there be no relaxation of the back muscles until after the shot is released.

I think that if we observe champions such as Rick Welch and Rod Jenkins, we have to agree that it is possible to be an excellent shot using either method.  My own experience is that it is not possible to shoot well blending the methods.  For example, it is not possible for me to shoot well if I stop my draw to hold at full draw, and then try to re-start pulling to complete the shot.  I either have to increase back tension continuously throughout the shot, or else lock off my back muscles, hold, and release without any further increase in back tension.

Some food for thought, as it seems to me that you are really trying to shoot with a dead release, but are not quite able to get it.

[hart2hart]

Curosity ??? What kind of nocking points are you using?Brass pinch ons or thread?
Couldn't see from video.
Mike

[Kopper1013]

McDave I have bought a couple of ricks DVDs but struggled to learn his style, was considering doing his school but with the kids it's just not realistic right now. I didn't know he was dead realease guy I thought he still used back tension throughout but must have missed that in his dvd's.
I just want consistency and to stop hitting my lip hahaha I'm open to EVERYTHING. Shot pretty good tonight with Arnes suggestions and didn't hit myself. However I feel my anchor is lower and am concerned I'll struggle at longer ranges...
Hart2Hart I use tie on nocking points...

[moebow]

Learn your shot first.  Get to a point where you can shoot without injury THEN worry about "longer ranges!"

All shots up close without a bull's eye until the shot is solid THEN targets or range.

Arne

[kenneth butler]

In slightly different words. Your drawing hand is high on your face so you are ducking your head to the string and letting up on the draw to reach your anchor. Arne is way more advanced,listen to him about where to anchor. Keep your head erect and draw to where you desire to anchor. Good luck. I found out that the longer I practiced bad habits the harder it is to break them. >>>----> Ken