Hill Style vs Reflex Deflex draw weight

[STICKBENDER98]

I only shoot wood arrows from my Northern Mist bows, I have tried carbon, and aluminum also but always ended up back shooting wood.  As stated above buy a test kit.  I build my own arrows so I purchased a test kit from Surewood Shafts.  I bought spines from 45/50, 50/55, and 55/60, and bought an extra half dozen 60/65, and 65/70, I had the 60/65 and 65/70 back tapered.  I ended up settling on the 60/65s with 225 grain tips up front. I have tried aluminum 2016 up to 2117 and 400, and 500 spine GT carbons but always seem to get my best flight, (at least to my eyes) with the 60/65 spine woods, I have recently purchased some 60/65 spine parallel Surewood Shafts, and can't really see any difference with ones that are back tapered.  I will say also that Steve's bows seem to prefer a heavier arrow, I have a couple of his bows that are 46# and 48# and shoot these same shafts from them.  Good luck with your journey, I think you'll be very happy with the American.


Jason

[TxSportsman]

Do the Surewood test kits come fletched? Should I shoot the test kits bareshaft or fletched? I guess I'll need to pick up a tapering tool as well? I'm guessing I'd be OK just picking up the 45/55 to 50/55 kit? Or do you think I should get both sides of that as well? I do to shoot a heavier arrow with a good deal of FOC (typically somewhere around 20% or more).

I do bare shaft tune my current bows but I've also heard that can be a bit of a bear for ASL style - in addition this is a new setup so I don't necessarily have to get it down to a perfect science just yet... I just want straight arrow flight so I can get to practicing. I'll get a lot more particular once I feel confident with the bow and am ready to start hunting.

Looking at some articles on wooden arrow building, I think later down the road this is going to be a GREAT "man time" diy project for me as I really like perfecting my own equipment.

[Orion]

Usually, you get three spine ranges in a test kit.  I'd recommend you start at 50-55 and go up from there. Do you know what kind of string is on the bow? If it's dacron, the 50-55 should work.  If it's low stretch, 55-60 or even 60-65 might be better.  55-60 will also likely work with dacron. 

I don't recommend bare shafting woodies, particularly with an ASL, which is cut proud of center.  You will need to pick up a hand held taper tool, or, if you have a table saw or disk sander, you can make taper boards and grind your tapers that way. You already have fletching experience and equipment so go ahead and fletch up a couple.

Once you figure out your draw length, I suggest you cut your arrows (or one or two test arrows to start) one inch longer than the back of the bow at full draw, plus an inch for the taper for the point, and then tune with point weight. Generally, your choices are 125, 145, 160 grains and heavier in field points.   Not everybody tunes this way, but it works pretty well.Good luck.

[Huntschool]

I guess I am going to tell the other side of the coin story.....

I have tried for years to get friendly with Hill Style (ASL) long bows.  Nothing doing.  I have had friends lend me bows to "test drive" for a month or more and it just does not work for me.  I feel I have been more then open minded and "form minded" to the use of said bows but they just do not work for me.  I have been shooting since the late 50's so I have had a bunch of bows in my hands and I really, really wanted to get an ASL (as we now call them) just for the "Tradition" of them.  Nada....  I should mention that Rob even sent me a really nice one of his to try and I just could not get friendly with it.

Perhaps it because I am old ( LOL) but they are not comfortable for me to shoot and thus my accuracy suffers....  cant have that.  Understand, I did not just throw a few arrows off a bow but rather 100's off the bows I tried.....  Nada.

So.....  I guess its just me.  But then there are RD LB's that I can shoot quite well and I mean quite well.

Your decision ....  If it was me knowing what I know I would surely try and get my hands on a test bow before I laid out any bucks for something as a "I guess it gonna work" purchase.

Just my thoughts and I hold nothing against those that can shoot those ASL bows.

[bucknut]

A couple more things that I would like to throw out there.  Yes, There are some archers that this style just doesn't agree with.  Yes, it will most likely take some adjustments to your current shooting style. My guess is you will need a minimum of 65# woodies with your draw and that bow weight compared to my bows and arrow setups. ( I shoot 160 gr points. Don't know what weight you will shoot.) Making your own woodies is part of the joy of this style. No, they don't have to be fancy either. I agree with the test kits and the use of Surewood as a supplier.  They are top notch and can most likely get you closer in spine range than any of us. That's what they do!  Mike Vines has a great youtube how to video on building woodies. If you do buy a jig, look on the classifieds or the auction site and get a Bitzenberger.  It is money well spent.  Also I don't know what fletching length you shoot but I would recommend nothing under 5". You will be shooting around the bow more than your R/D and recurve bows and will require a bit more steering ability.

Just My Opinions,
John

[TxSportsman]

I guess I am going to tell the other side of the coin story.....

I have tried for years to get friendly with Hill Style (ASL) long bows.  Nothing doing.  I have had friends lend me bows to "test drive" for a month or more and it just does not work for me.  I feel I have been more then open minded and "form minded" to the use of said bows but they just do not work for me.  I have been shooting since the late 50's so I have had a bunch of bows in my hands and I really, really wanted to get an ASL (as we now call them) just for the "Tradition" of them.  Nada....  I should mention that Rob even sent me a really nice one of his to try and I just could not get friendly with it.

Perhaps it because I am old ( LOL) but they are not comfortable for me to shoot and thus my accuracy suffers....  cant have that.  Understand, I did not just throw a few arrows off a bow but rather 100's off the bows I tried.....  Nada.

So.....  I guess its just me.  But then there are RD LB's that I can shoot quite well and I mean quite well.

Your decision ....  If it was me knowing what I know I would surely try and get my hands on a test bow before I laid out any bucks for something as a "I guess it gonna work" purchase.

Just my thoughts and I hold nothing against those that can shoot those ASL bows.

Wow, way to be a Debby Downer! Only joking of course. I appreciate your comments and it's good to hear both sides of the story. I get it, everyone has their preference and after a good effort with an ASL style bow maybe I'll love it, or maybe I'll stick with my other longbows? Either way I am excited to try something new. As the times are right now, getting out and test driving a bow is pretty limited if not impossible. My new to me NM should be here by Saturday and being the horse trader that I am, no money was exchanged in my deal. Turns out I found someone else that was cut from the same cloth and we made a fun, fair trade. No better time then now to start on this path, at least in my eyes. My small business is now under mandatory closure. I wake up early, figure out how to make my family any amount of money possible, do chores around the house, and then it's nice to shoot some arrows and clear my mind.

[TxSportsman]

A couple more things that I would like to throw out there.  Yes, There are some archers that this style just doesn't agree with.  Yes, it will most likely take some adjustments to your current shooting style. My guess is you will need a minimum of 65# woodies with your draw and that bow weight compared to my bows and arrow setups. ( I shoot 160 gr points. Don't know what weight you will shoot.) Making your own woodies is part of the joy of this style. No, they don't have to be fancy either. I agree with the test kits and the use of Surewood as a supplier.  They are top notch and can most likely get you closer in spine range than any of us. That's what they do!  Mike Vines has a great youtube how to video on building woodies. If you do buy a jig, look on the classifieds or the auction site and get a Bitzenberger.  It is money well spent.  Also I don't know what fletching length you shoot but I would recommend nothing under 5". You will be shooting around the bow more than your R/D and recurve bows and will require a bit more steering ability.

Just My Opinions,
John

Thank you for the comments John.

[TSP]

After many years of shooting various types of bows (recurves, hybrids, ASLs, a little bit with primitive) the best I can offer regarding ASLs (a bow design that I do like very much and shoot frequently) is twofold:

1.)  Try before you buy; these bows are an acquired taste compared to other designs and being able to test various ASLs will give you a feel (literally) for what they are like before spending lots of money.  How you grip them is an important consideration, it will affect other parts of the shot that affect the results you get; and

2.)  Don't take the 'Hill style' label or manner of shooting too seriously/religiously. You don't 'need' to shoot these bows according to the many popular (and sometimes conflicting) books and vids on the subject, and trying to follow the winding path of gospel do's and don'ts may well make your ASL voyage an adventure in frustration rather than an enjoyable journey.  Remember, despite their traditional flavor and classic looks they are just bows and can be shot many different ways, with the 'best' way being the manner that works and feels best for YOU.  As with any bow or style you'll be happiest if you develop your own approach based on practice, so just have fun with it.  As far as wood arrows go, ASLs and woodies are like bacon and eggs...a delicious combo.

[Tradcat]

Been on the Hill bow journey 100% now for the last two years. Hands down the best decision I’ve ever made with stick and string. Been shooting a 70” Howard Hill Cheetah and now I’m a few months away from either a Northern Mist Classic or a Shelton. If I go Classic it will be 68” if I opt for the Shelton, it will be 66”

[TxSportsman]

Just a little update - I received my NM American and have had the chance to run a few carbon arrows through it just for kicks while I wait on my wood shaft test kit... What a BLAST! I'm loving this thing already. I'll probably end up listing my other bows and going full tilt here. Here's a picture. Sorry in advance but I'll be updating the HH BUG thread and the NM pic thread as well with the same shots. I'm looking forward to the road ahead.

[Orion]

 

[Deno]

Yessir TXS.....  enjoy the adventure.

Deno

[Possum Head]

Study some draw curves of both they are available and tell the real story! You’ll do fine at your usual weight

[Sam McMichael]

Like Huntschool indicated, some just don't get along well with the ASL. I found early on that there are two main differences in shooting the longbow and recurves. One is the lower grip with the bow pressed against the heel of the hand. The other is the slight bend in the bow arm common to longbow shooters. Still, some guys just don't find this style bow comfortable, but from your recent post, you seem to like this style just fine. Hunt has been shooting at least as long as I have, so he knows what is good and bad for him. It is good though, that he put his experience out there, so that some who try the ASL realize that sometimes the style just doesn't work for them, even very experienced archers. I would not encourage you to sell off the other bows too quickly, though. I do sometimes shoot my R/D longbows, and even a recurve on rare occasions, just for a change of pace. I congratulate you on changing to the ASL, and you will not find a better style bow. Careful, though, with all these great bowyers out there, you may find yourself "needing" to grow the herd more than you ever would have thought necessary.

[TxSportsman]

Sam: I appreciate your comments. I have found the straight handle and low grip style to be very accommodating and repetitive for me. I had never held a straight grip before - which is crazy - and I think I had the most hesitation about this style of bows because of the grip (I know they come with dished or locator as well).  I think I really prefer it to any other grip I've used. For whatever reason, when gripping most locator style handles I seem to struggle with repetition sometimes.

Just messing around with a generic gold tip arrow I have and some random field point I've already noticed how accurate this thing can be. 

And I've already been looking at growing the herd. 

[STICKBENDER98]

Sounds like you're hooked Tx, I have 6 of Steve's bows, with a 7th on order, and each model shoot great, and just a bit different, but I am able to shoot the same arrows out of them all.  Good luck with your adventure with longbows.


Jason

[MnFn]

I went through the same considerations as you did regarding weight and a hill style bow.  I ended up with a Northern Mist Shelton 55@28. Which is at my upper limits. The Shelton is a pleasure to shoot.

I have not checked my draw length yet but always shoot 29” arrows. I have a pretty broad range spine in Surewood Douglass Fir.

So far the Shelton shoots 55/60 the best for me.

[TxSportsman]

edit - questions answered