Bare shaft shooting today...confused!

[Frank V]

Josh, I'm probably going to get hammered for saying this, but I'm going to say it anyway. You don't shoot your arrows at stumps, targets, or game without fletching do you? You say your arrows are flying well & you are hitting where you look when you concetrate. I'd not make it more difficult than it is & put on my broadheads & see how they fly. Then if they aren't flying well, I'd try tuning with the fletching on, that's the way you are going to shoot them anyway. Thanks Frank

[DRR324]

OL,  I'm right handed.  I'll check out the website you listed.  I was messing with the different shafts this weekend trying the razorcaps.  I've been shooting Magnus stinger SS heads for the last 2 years.  They preformed ok- but really wanted to give the razorcaps a try.
I noticed when I shot the 400s with the caps- they flew well at 30 yards- but were hitting to the right about 3-4 inches of where I wanted.  The 500s (weaker shafts) were tailing around a touch and hitting kinda all over- didn't shoot them a bunch- just about 6 shots each.  I'm leaning toward the 400s for the extra weight and stiffness.  I do have a few 150 grain snuffers- but nothing bigger than my razorcaps in 125.  My stingers are 100 grain.  I'll check out the website and will have to do some testing this weekend, daughter has volleyball tonight...
Dave

[O.L. Adcock]

Frank, no hammering...Just tell us how you KNOW they aren't flying well without a refference? Fletched field tips are the refference, wide bh's or bareshaft are what's needed to compare to the refference.

Problems you can "see" are HUGE, and problems you can't see are causeing misses that could be avoided with a little effort. To take your thinking one step further, shoot mechancicals or move your sight pins...Problems gone or at least under the rug.

What ever bareshafts or wide Bh's are doing, your field points or narrow bh's are doing also, you just can't see it.

Good tuning is needed most in 2 situations, one is long range accuracy..Ok, I never shoot over say 20 yards...The other is close range on. A poorly tuned arrow will penertate deeper at 20 yards then it will a 5...Assuming you hit it to start with. Anyone ever broke wood shafts trying to bare shaft?? And then slapped fleching on them and called it good? They broke cause they were WAY off..O.L.

[DRR324]

OL,
Thanks for the info- I printed your tuning pages and will have them at home for my tuning process.
I'll let you know the outcome sometime this weekend.
Dave

[Oliverstacy]

Originally posted by snag:
OL, I want to thank you and others for having the patience with us as beginners. I know I have benefited from your advice and now have the joy of good arrow flight.

Second the above statement...  

[DRR324]

Well, I completed a little testing last night.  Went to my local archery store before the volleyball game.  Shooting 20 yard indoor range- my 400 shafts with 125 grain tips were hitting about 3-4" from the orange spot I was shooting at with a bit of whip to the tail during flight.  I then screwed a 145 grain tip on and- voila- was hitting the 2" orange spot consistently with very good flight.  The bare shaft flew very straight and I believe I am tuned in...thanks for the advice OL, and others.  I am going to buy some of the razorcap 150 ferrules (sp) and give them the test with my 4 fletched shafts.

[O.L. Adcock]

Good job!   ...Keep in mind the BH's may still show some problems, maybe not. Doing this at 20 yards is still "course tuning" but is probably adaquate for most folks. Backing up to as far away as a person can shoot a group gets to the fine tuning part. Even if the "group" is just keeping arrows on the bale!   ....O.L.

[DRR324]

I'll be doing some longer range testing this weekend.  I cleaned 4 shafts last night to refletch and will be using them to test.  I did move my "rest" back just a bit to line it up with my grip point on the riser.  I build up a small hump with leather and moleskin.  I was getting really good flight with my fletched arrows last night and the 145 tips.  Only got to shoot a dozen- had the lights on and was told only idiots shoot in the dark..... I told her I couldn't be an idiot- I had the lights on!  

[Oliverstacy]

Originally posted by DRR324:
Only got to shoot a dozen- had the lights on and was told only idiots shoot in the dark..... I told her I couldn't be an idiot- I had the lights on!    

I must be an idiot then to...I work from 4 pm to 12:30 am and shoot when I get home (I take care of our two children during the day).  I have lights on my garage and a flood light but that's it.  I'm back in the darkness but the target is visible, I shoot this way 5 nights a week or more.  Figure it helps with my low light shooting for hunting season.  Wife also thinks I’m nuts but understands this is when I can be alone to concentrate on the task at hand.

Funny today I was out shooting (in the light) and the dots seemed sooooo much clearer, took a nock off an arrow and the groups were very small, smaller than I shoot at night.  Daughter started full day school (1st grade) today and my son starts preschool next week so I will be able to shoot more during the daylight hours.  Might improve some!  

Josh

[Tom Anderson]

I've been using O.L.'s method exactly as described on his website for years and it's worked perfect for me.

O.L., got a question for ya - can you explain WHAT causes a stiff bareshaft to hit left and vice-versa?  I just can't visualize why they go the way they do...

[vermonster13]

Stiff one will hit left because it flexes less at the shot thus veering while the weak will go right because over flex and not recovering from paradox enough to go straight.

Stiff will come off the string pointing \\ while a weak will point this way /, but hopefully not that severely lol.

[O.L. Adcock]

Hey Tom, vermonster13 got it pretty close. It's more akin to accustics then any other branch of physics. Any given arrow will vibrate/oscilate at 1 frequency just like a guitar string. We have to "time" those oscillations to occure at the correct time in the power stroke. During those oscilations there are 2 spots a few inches from each end that do not move while the ends and middle wiggle their butts off. Those are called "nodes"...Those nodes start out aligned in the direction the arrow is pointed, if those nodes are still aligned in the same direction as the arrow leaves the string, the arrow goes straight, if not it veers off inline with those nodes. Easton has some good info on that if you feel like digging.

Just like the guitar string we can change the frequency (timing) by changing stiffness (tension), diameter, length, and mass distribution. How hard we "pluck it" has no effect on the frequency, any given arrow goes through those oscilations at the same speed no matter what poundage bow we shoot it out of unles we change one of those factors above. Ever stood off to the side and listened to someone shoot an aluminum shaft with a loose point? That rattle is paradox you are hearing. Ever wonder why many think tapered shafts shoot so well...Tapered things don't "ring" as well as parallel things. Some see a "kick" and call it paradox..It's not..You can't "see" paradox...Any wobble seen is from poor tuning or form....O.L.

[Tom Anderson]

Originally posted by O.L. Adcock:
...Those nodes start out aligned in the direction the arrow is pointed, if those nodes are still aligned in the same direction as the arrow leaves the string, the arrow goes straight, if not it veers off inline with those nodes.

Aha! That's right, the nodes get misaligned because the bowstring is wiggling back and forth left and right as it travels towards the belly of the bow...from sliding off the fingertips which place it initially misaligned from center(to the left for a RH shooter).  We want that "wiggle" to be in the midline when it leaves the nock.

[O.L. Adcock]

Yep...Want a tuning challenge, try a bow dead centershot with a 14" arrow with an 18" power stroke with arrows too fragile to shoot into a bale/target and you can't see in flight! I've had to resort to paper tuning and never realized how important/critical pressure from you bow hand is. I can make the arrows kick any direction I want just from bow hand pressure. Unfortunatly changes in bow hand position I can't detect makes them kick also..It'll drive you nuts....O.L.