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Author Topic: Your thoughts on "The Void"  (Read 1311 times)

Offline longbawl

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Re: Your thoughts on "The Void"
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2008, 05:19:00 AM »
Let me tell you what happened to me. About 10 years ago I was in my stand when i saw a buck coming down the trail. As he got closer i saw he had a arrow sticking out between his shoulders. When the deer got close i shot him. I was 20feet up the tree and the deer was 10yds from the base. The deer went 15yds and went down. I sat in the stand for 1hour waiting for who ever had shot the deer to come tracking. After no one should up I went to the house and got a bite to eat. got the 4 wheeler went back to the deer. pulled up to the deer shut off the 4 wheeler. The deer got up then ran off I tracked it for 200yds then lost blood. Went home called a friend to tell him what happened. He told me what i would have said. That i was full of it.Theres not no way i hit the deer where i thought. He had to work so he came out to the house 26 hours after i shot the deer. We found the deer I saw the horns first When i said here he is. the deer got up and walked around the hill. My friend stayed watching the deer while i went back to get a bow.I shot the deer it went down. after looking at where i hit the deer the first time will let me say i would take that shot every time.I hit to the deers left side about 3" from the spine and came out just a little to the right of his brisket. I ask around to try to find out who might have shot the deer. I found out the deer was shot the first time about a mile from where i shot the deer and after i shot the deer he went 1/2 mile.Now i will be honest if this didnt happen to me I might need a grain of salt to help it go down.LOL I have been hunting with a bow for over 30 years. And this caps every thing off to this point.

Offline String Cutter

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Re: Your thoughts on "The Void"
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2008, 05:22:00 AM »
I thought I had hit the 'Void'  also on one of my shots... Until I talked to a Vet.. Paradocs that's a member on here. He told me there is no space there and it was a myth... What more then liklely happened is I and your friend shot above the spine.
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Offline rg176bnc

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Re: Your thoughts on "The Void"
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2008, 04:16:00 PM »
Its there.  Only shots taken from the ground find it though.

Offline -Achilles-

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Re: Your thoughts on "The Void"
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2008, 06:05:00 PM »
How is there a debate over this?I've hit that spot and many others have too...Why are there non believers?

Offline Big Dave

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Re: Your thoughts on "The Void"
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2008, 06:37:00 PM »
Has anyone ever recoverd one that was supposedly shot there without having to shoot it again?I always thought that there was a spot but I killed one last year that the arrow path was just like the one in the picture (arrow tight up against the spine )and it was a double lung hit. I have shot several in what I thought was the spot and they were never recovered. Therefore I don't beleive there is a spot. I think you hit avove the spine. My2cents  David
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Offline Dozer

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Re: Your thoughts on "The Void"
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2008, 07:04:00 PM »
As is true with the entire human race, I’m sure not every deer is born in perfect anatomical order. That being said I also support Sharpster’s idea of a dull BH. The bruising could be the cause of the BH shoving the free moving lungs out of the way instead of cutting them. I think we can all agree that just because a BH can poke a hole through a hide doesn’t mean it’ll do its job on the vitals.
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
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Offline Bonebuster

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Re: Your thoughts on "The Void"
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2008, 08:01:00 PM »
Sort of an update to the story.

We did not find the arrow or parts of the arrow in the deer, so my friend went back to search for his arrow. (Can`t leave an arrow in a hayfield.)
He told me he finally found it where he eventually killed the buck.

The arrow was complete, broadhead intact. He thinks he may have some how gotten a practice arrow in his quiver. (He practices with broadheads
quite a bit) So the dull broadhead theory may be the answer. The blades on the recovered arrow are
as dull as a butter knife. The broadhead was a 100 grain Thunderhead, and the stainless blades should have still been reasonably sharp.

Also, I want to add, that the entrance and exit wounds were visible from inside the chest cavity, and the arrow clearly passed under the spine.

Online Orion

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Re: Your thoughts on "The Void"
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2008, 08:14:00 PM »
I agree with Dr. Gross.  No void, but it is possible to hit a deer, or other animal, high, but below the spine and not recover it, and the animal may still live.  Several years ago, upon butchering a modest buck I shot, I discovered a healed over four-blade arrow wound under its spine.  The arrow was apparently a pass through shopt from ground level.  The x was in the upper rib cage and hide on both sides of the animal.  I killed that buck in mid-December.  Season had been open since mid-September.  My guess is that it was wounded sometime during September or October.  Showed no signs of being wounded/hurt when I killed it.

Offline wingnut

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Re: Your thoughts on "The Void"
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2008, 08:24:00 PM »
The 'Void" is in my opinion usually a high lung hit with little or no blood trail (it's inside the animal) with a dead animal at the end if we could follow.

I have not done it myself but have tracked deer, elk, and bear hit in this manner.  With nearly 40 years of experience we still only recover less then half of the animal hit like this.

Mike
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Offline Brian Krebs

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Re: Your thoughts on "The Void"
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2008, 08:55:00 PM »
yup yup yup - sharpster was right ( in my less than humble opinion) and Dozer too.

 OK the scientific evidence that was shown does not ask what happens if a dull broadhead; or a head that just plain does not cut the lungs for whatever reason ( that might include something on the blade - like hair or tissue picked up on the way in). The science is based on the conclusion that a broadhead would cut the lung on the way through.

 But a two blade on its side might not. I have seen this happen - where the lungs were NOT damaged - but a vein or artery on the top of the chest cavity WAS. So the chest cavity on this particular deer filled with blood eventually- and the lungs deflated.

  It is possible for the lung to be cut- but not enough to collapse the lung- I happen to be a walking talking example of that.
  I had a stilletto ( a two blade knife) stuck into my back that cut the vein leading out of my kidneys and cut my lung - but did not collapse it.
 Now granted; I walked into a hospital and got treatment - and yes eventually my lungs collapsed from the bleeding inside... but if that vein had been missed- I probably would have not had the collapsed lungs.

  I really hate to talk about the number of people I have talked to; both experienced bowhunters; and those that give the appearance of being experienced- and people on hunting shows; that shoot for practice: and then put the broadhead into the quiver and go hunting with it.

  You cannot get a broadhead too sharp; but you certainly can easily hunt with broadheads too dull.

  I think it is the biggest single thing we do that leads to a negative light on bowhunting.

  I once hunted with a guy that I insisted on sharpening his broadheads for; and he shot a buck which got away despite a " perfect shot" as he described it. I asked him though- 'are you sure that arrow was shooting perfectly?' ( a set up question) and he replied "yes - I have been practicing with it all morning".

 So in his mind - he did everything right; and the deer survived and bowhunting is a cruel activity: as bows cannot kill even with a "perfect hit".  He does not bowhunt anymore because of it. No matter that I pointed out that he had NO DOUBT dulled the head that morning practicing with it; and that was the reason the deer was not recovered.

  I completely believe that you should be shooting every arrow you hunt with; and then resharpening them before hunting; and too: constantly checking your broadheads for sharpness - and resharpening them.

 Therefore it distresses me when I see 40 dollar a piece broadheads that if the shooter shoots to see if the setup works ( and one good arrow in a quiver does not mean all will shoot the same - or most importantly: acceptably). When resharpening that head means disasembly and sending it off to be resharpend. It just lends itself to misuse by some; and some... is too much.

 In this case here; the guy accidently used a practice head. That happens. I shot a judo point in competition once and didn't know I did- things happen.

 But the acceptance in any way. The propagation in anyway. That shooting a broadhead-- EVEN ONCE for practice - and then hunting with it: is ~totally unexceptable~.

 That void area on most unrecovered deer: is ~probably~ IMHO a shot OVER the lungs; and through muscle; where the animal can recover.

 Lets not overlook for one second - the response by this hunter to the situation. He thought he made a good shot; he watched the deer. When it did not expire when one would think it would.. when hit as he thought - he backed out and got some help -- from an apparently perfect source.

 A BIG TIP OF THE HAT TO THAT !!

And the reaction worked - the deer was recovered.

 I really think we need to be talking more about how to sharpen heads; and about the need to keep them sharp.

 Part of the problem too; is 'white lies'. Lies which seem to hurt nobody and therefore are exceptable to our psyche.

 When a person makes an imperfect shot - owe up to it. To say you hit a deer perfectly - when it was not- just gives bowhunting a black eye.

 Deer can move so fast you can leave misses and bad hits: to their actions instead of yours. Be totally honest about it.  We all have holes in 3D targets we wish were not there- if on a real animal it may not have killed the animal- things happen.

 I once shot from a 20 foot up treestand; a buck- that heard my arrow coming ( last time I used that pattern I burned) and flipped over in an attempt to get away. I hit that deer on the bottom of its chest- and it came out over its opposite shoulder; and buried into the ground half a foot. I killed the deer - but it is an example of how fast they move!

 And most often that movement is down; they as we - cannot stand still and jump up; before lowering ourselves; so a perfect shot can and does sometimes- hit high on the animal.

 Keep em sharp; and be honest about hits and how it happened. Sometimes a white lie can lead to a black eye and that is not good for us in the long run.

 I think the story is great; because everything was done so well - from beginning to end...other than that dull broadhead ! ( and the lack of a really effecient bow   :p  )

       :campfire:    :archer:
THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP.

Offline Daddy Bear

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Re: Your thoughts on "The Void"
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2008, 11:29:00 PM »
I do not see how it is possible to shoot an arrow into the chest cavity directly under the spine without striking the inflated lung of a healthy deer. If the deer has a partial or full collapse of the lung for some reason, I can see that it would be possible that the lung may not completely fill the cavity and may be missed. I just cannot see how it is physically possible for a healthy deer to have any gap between the top of the lung and the lungs cavity during any point of the breathing cycle. I can see how a very dull point could penetrate the cavity and somehow crease between the cavity and the top of the lung which should cause bruising.

Here is a good video that shows a professional butchering a freshly killed whitetail:

 http://www.newjerseyhunter.com/video/deerfield.wmv

He shows the hung carcass with one side completely boned out with the spine and ribs intact while the other side has all flesh on bones. This gives you a great view showing the deer's anatomy. You guys who state that there is a space below the spine and above the lungs that is void of vitals, where exactly is this voided space? Are you saying that there is a space between the cavity and spine, or are you saying that the lungs do not fill the lung cavity completely to the top?? Science has proven that neither of those two scenarios exist on a normal deer, so where is it???

Thanks,
Daddy Bear

Offline Brian Krebs

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Re: Your thoughts on "The Void"
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2008, 04:07:00 AM »
Daddy Bear; personally I was referring to most 'void shots' being ~over~ the chest cavity.

 The lungs are not square; they come to a lobe in the front; over the heart- where a heart beat itself might open a slight gap. Probably not- but that is exactly where most of us void shooters are talking about.

 A fraction of an inch can mean being in the chest cavity or OVER it: at that particular
spot.

 Yes - there are lots of veins and arteries; but deer can recover from a shot over the chest cavity and therefore lungs - and it can still look like: a perfect in the 'dead zone' shot.

 However; the lung is NOT attached to the chest wall. The lung IS a slippery surface. Crack the chest on a live deer ( did this before with pregnant car - hit deer) and you can slip your hand around the lungs- there is no connective tissue from the lung to the chest wall.

  I say that if an arrow slipped between the lungs and the chest wall- through there right; and the chances soar with a dull blade- the lungs will NOT be cut.

  I have seen it; and I am not exactly a person not familiar with either autopsies or necropsies. I have necropsied deer with biologists - first time in the 1960s..
  I was TRAINED to look for slices on lungs and wound channels and I have studied the deer and elk I have killed- and others have killed- very closely.
 ( not to mention autopsies on murdered people)
  That does not change the fact: I  am NOT a practicing biologist.

 But from field experience- a shot in the chest cavity does NOT always cut the lungs; or cut them enough to make the lungs bleed; or be noticable to the 'naked eye' and fingers.

 All that void has to be - that space - is the width of the broadhead if its sharp; and any size if it is dull.

 Damage done by bullets in the same area cause the flesh to pulverize due to hydrostatic shock.

 Broadheads are not designed to produce any hydrostatic shock; so damage done is mostly done by the broadhead cutting. If its dull; its not going to do that - at most it will be a lessor degree...agreed?

 A doctor can do surgery and move the lungs around as he does his doctor thing. His fingers will be going between the lung and the chest wall; yet the damage - rare: to healthy lung tissue.

 So why could not a thin broadhead slip by just like the doctors fingers?

  One more thing. I could expand my lungs and breathe when I was stabbed; until my chest cavity filled with blood; and my lungs could NO LONGER EXPAND to take in air. That means they have an inflated size; and a deflated size...which if filled by blood will not allow the lungs to expand and fill with air.
  ( been there done that)

If there is no possiblity of a void; why does the increase of blood in the lungs prevent inhalation of air? Because the lung expansion area is filled with blood. If the lung expands and delates with breaths taken; how can the possiblility of the deflated lung allowing a broadhead to pass by - not effecting the lungs...not be possible.

 Totally ready to be soooooo wrong on this.
Its how we learn
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THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP.

Offline SteveB

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Re: Your thoughts on "The Void"
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2008, 07:31:00 AM »
The arrow would be going in pretty much a straight line - not feeling for and adjusting for the curves of the cavity where the lungs meet.

Possible? Anything is - but highly, highly improbable.

Steve

Offline Brian Krebs

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Re: Your thoughts on "The Void"
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2008, 02:50:00 PM »
out of millions of deer that are shot each year with bows; it does not come up very often.
THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP.

Offline BobW

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Re: Your thoughts on "The Void"
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2008, 03:13:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Brian Krebs:
out of millions of deer that are shot each year with bows; it does not come up very often.
:wavey:  Well it isn't fun to have "won" that lottery.  I've got one in 18 years...... Yep, shot taken from the ground.  Yep, arrow looked like it had been smeared in hamburger (tissue, no blood).  Yep, deer walked around feeding for 45 minutes, then ambled off, never to be seen again.  Yep, brown hair on the ground.  Yep, not a single drop of blood.

Made a believer out of me.
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Offline ChuckC

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Re: Your thoughts on "The Void"
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2008, 04:46:00 PM »
Just a note too.  the spine doesn't go straight across the animal, there is a dip near the front.  Since you can see what certinly appears to be the shouder blades of the deer in Ontario's pic, I would guess that this tomographic cross section (OK, with a band saw likely) was taken near the front of the animal's chest cavity.   The amount of area above the spine changes as you move towards the rear of the animal, even within the chest cavity.

Also,  although this "phenomena" happened to me,  I have no clue if there is really a "void area" or not, but I would certainly be interested in seeing cross sections of that same animal about every inch thru the chest cavity.

What it looked like in front may not reflect what it looked like two inches away.  You see this all the time with tissue slides following a necropsy.

Another question I would like to ask.  Are there areas of the lungs that are more solid  ei, not air filled sac's but rather more muscular and forming the shape  and supporting tissue.  I ask that because,   just because you hit an animals heart, does not mean that it will be a mortal hit, a slice to the heart tissue may not do all that much immediate damage, while a hole in the ventricles will cause death in seconds.  If you hit an animal in the high leg, you may have a muscle it, or you may hit the femoral which is tucked in there somewhere.  Can we be hitting the lungs in an area not so condusive to immediate deadly results ?  If so, can this be better described ?

ChuckC

Offline Buckeye Trad Hunter

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Re: Your thoughts on "The Void"
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2008, 06:23:00 PM »
My father shot a buck in the "void" with his crossgun ( he has degenitive arthritis in his neck and shoulders or I'd disown him ) anyway the buck runs off pulls the arrow out and lives until my father shot the same buck with his muzzle loader on the last evening of gun season.  If the void is there or not I know from experience that deer hit here even with three blade broadheads can survive.  Not even a sign of infection when the deer was processed

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