arrow making - shaft question

[dinorocks]

Hi all!  My son (4yrs) and I would like to make our own arrows. I have found some 3/8" ramin and 3/8" Forster hardwood dowels pretty cheap (money is a concern right now)...   With a little tappering, what size tip would you recommend I order (11/32"?).  Any thoughts on which of the two material listed above might be better (or possibly a different material)?  We plan to use these arrows for target/small game.  From an article I read in Traditional Bowhunter, arrows for this purpose do not need to be too high-tech.  After I learn more I would like to make some arrows for deer hunting.

Note I shoot a 45lb Super Kodiak and I know I would need to check the spine weight of the shafts before I get started.  My son has a "bent branch" bow we made together...not very high-tech but seems to work for now.  

Does anyone have any other advice for someone getting started with arrow making (i.e. materials and equipment).

One last question regarding fletching.  I read that goose feathers are a good choice for fletching.  What are the differences between goose and turkey feathers for fletching?  Can anyone steer me to directions on processing/grinding my own feathers?

Thanks for any help!
Dino

[Shakes.602]

My "Humble Opinion", is that if 45# is the Highest Weight youre going to shoot, See if the Store will take them back and go with a 5/16 Dia. Dowel. Most Spine between 35-45 big range, but it depends on what You are Using them for.
  I Shoot 5/16 cut to 28 1/2 for ALL my Bows. All my Bows are in the 45 to 50 Pound Range, and I dont have One Bit of Trouble with them. I shoot Target and Foam Critters when I can, and the Occasional Stump.
  They are Kind of a Pain to get Straight, but I have only had a Very Small Amount I have to "Re-Straighten". Like I Said, Just My Opinion, and Points, and Nocks are Real easy to find, usually Pretty Cheap too.
             Good Luck Guys!!

[dinorocks]

Thanks!

[John3]

I've never used goose, but from all my reading they apparently don't hold up as well as turkey feathers.
Someone on the gang will be able to give you better info than I about the goose feathers.

JOhn III

[poekoelan]

You're definately going to need a spine tester and a scale. I put up a thread about building one, a search will pull it up. Perfect if money is tight. You could also get by with one of those cheap hanging grain scales for now, but the 25 dollar digital jobs are well worth the money.

3 rivers has an inexpensive fletching jig for about 30 bucks, you're going to need one of those too.

And Shakes is right, you'll probably be better served by 5/16 dowels than 3/8. You will undoubtedly end up with some that are underspined for your bow and over spined for son's. Here is one thing you can do: Group the underspined ones just like you would your normal ones. Build a quicky arrow ( just point, nock, and feathers ) out of one and experiment with building out your strike plate until you get good flight. This will allow you to use more of your dowels as arrows providing they have good grain, etc.  The other thing you can do if you want your son to use them is leave them longer than his normal arrows so they will act weaker.  

As for the feathers, check this out...
 http://groups.msn.com/ferretsarcherywebpage/strippingturkeyfeathers.msnw

It takes a few tries to get the hang of it, but it is much quicker and cheaper than having them ground/processed.

And if you'd like to cut them precisely without a chopper or a burner, You could make one of these for about 25 cents...

 http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l282/poekoelan/clips1.jpg

Use small sharp scissors and you should get great cuts.

Goose feathers should work fine. I've read that they are more delicate than turkey, but also naturally waterproof. IMO, any feather will do as long as you can get the length and height you need.

If money is a concern now, searh the word "cheap" on the pow wow forum. I put up a post for a cheap, accurate spine tester and there was another thread called "archery on the cheap" that had a lot of tips.

[SCATTERSHOT]

Yeah, those 3/8" dowels will spine out to 80+#. You would be better off with the 5/16. for sure. For a cheap arrow ( not poor quality, just inexpensive) you don't even need a fletching tool. Arrows have been made without them for thousands of years. Ditto spine testers. Just fletch a bunch using glue and straight pins, cut to length and shoot. Save those that fly well for you, and those that shoot weak for you, give those to your son.

If there are some that are too weak for him, (doubtful) just salvage the feathers and point, and try again.

Also search the word "frugal".

With wipe on poly (or not) and self nocks, you can get by pretty inexpensively.

Good shooting!

[Patience]

no real difference from turkey or goose feathers. Goose is supposed to be better in wet weather and turkey more durable. I find them pretty close to the same.

[Marvin M.]

There used to be a post in the How To section that John, Son of Glenn put up showing how to make a cheap and easy spine tester.  I just searched for it and couldn't find it.

It's pretty simple though.  He took a Piec of a board to make a holder (not easy to describe, but easy to do) that was adjustable so that you could "zero" the arrow.  On the other end (at the same distance for all arrows) hang a weight.  He used a 5/8 box end wrench.  Find an arrow that shoots well and mark how far the arrow bends under the weight.  Then use that as your standard for what will work.

I know that's not very clear, but if you will e-mail me, I'll try to show you what I'm talking about.

My e-mail is [email protected]

Marvin

[kyle]

Yeah, used to be a lot of talk 'bout ramin shafted arras here'bouts.  Don't see none of the old tutorials anywhere that had some darn useful information 'bout them and cheap, easy, and effective spine testers too that would work for any arra...... Maybe you can ask Rob where they went.  too bad useful info like that ain't here any more.  Maybe its just a memory issue.  Looks like lots of things prior to 2003 are gone.  I'm sure that took up lots of bit storage space.  I'm sure that some things just had to be removed from the tradgang memory.

You can get me at [email protected] and I'll pass along all the info I can.

[Frank Warnke]

Good advice above.  I would like to comment on arrows for children.

I have found that 1/4" ramin dowels fly great from my kid's bows.  They all started at 4yrs old and they are still enjoying archery because the equipment fits them and they have become proficient with it.  Plus it helps that their arrows "look like daddy's arrows" even if it is in miniture form.  

I buy 1/4" nocks and points from dealers at archery shoots or online at Kustom King and 3Rivers.  These arrows really fly like darts and are inexpensive to make.

[DarkeGreen]

My understandnig of spine is how many tenths of an inch an arrow bends when you hand it between to items 26" apart and place a 2 lb weight on it. Someone just posted a chart that shows the conversion, like .50 is equal to 50 lb spine.

All you really need to do is find a 2 lb weight. Put two nails in a wall 26" apart tape a piece of paper behind the arrow amd mark a line where it sets. Put you 2 lbs on the center of the arrow and make another mark. Then you just measure the distance and look at the conversion chart. You could do as the above post recommends too. find one that shoots good and make your mark on the wall (or paper) and just make all your other shafts match.

As for tips you can just get nuts from the hardware store and screw then on the ends. Everyone here calls them nutters and they work great on small game. I like to shoot tin cans with them too.

[dinorocks]

Thanks everyone for the great info in this post and the others I put up!  I order my arrow making materials today!

Can DarkeGreen or anyone else, expand on the homemade spine tester?  I would like to build one to test some ramin shafts someone sent me recently (as well as future shafts).  Is there a place to download a conversion chart to attach behind the spine tester described in the post above?

If I shoot a spine weight much lighter than my bow (i.e. 35# spine weight from my 45# recurve), could the arrow break as it is released?  I'm assuming that it will not fly as “true” as a stiffer spine-weighted arrow…(?)  I'm also assuming that a 35# spined arrow is approximately the same weight as an equal diameter shaft at a higher spine weight...(?)  Any clarification would be greatly appreciated!

Final question.  If I determine that a shaft is stronger (heavier spine weight side) on one side than the other as I rotate and test the shaft spine, is the “strong” side the side that I should line up my nock indexer?

Thanks again!

Dino
-new but learning with everyone’s help, thanks!

[Grey Taylor]

Dino, I'll poke my $.02 in here if you don't mind...
The ramin you have is all 45# to 49#, the marked ends disappeared with tapering.  As I mentioned, I have a devil of a time seeing the grain on ramin so I spine the strong side, align that with your index and you'll be good.
When I made the chart for my spine tester I just got a calculator and figured out the deflection for each weight from 25# to 100#.  I don't remember the formula right off hand but it's quite simple.
Yes, if you shoot a way underspined arrow there is a chance that it won't be able to get out of its own way fast enough and it could break.
Individual shaft weight will vary depending upon the density of the wood.  Shafts similar in spine and diameter can vary widly.

Have fun,   Guy

[Marvin M.]

Hey Dino,

1)  There are a couple of different plans for making a spine tester.  The one mentioned above is one of the simplest.  Just find a bare spot on the wall somewhere and drive two nails in the wall to lay the shaft across.  You want the support to be twenty-six inches apart.  When you put the shaft on there, find the center and mark where the shaft rests.  Next get a two pound weight and hang it from the center of the shaft (thirteen inches from each end).  Now, mark where the shaft rests with the weight on it.  The distance between those two marks is the deflection.  

I'm sure someone will jump all over me if I get this wrong, but I think the formula for the conversion is distance (in this case twenty six inches) divided by the deflection.

Example:  If your deflection is a half inch, the spine of that shaft would be 26/.5 = 52 pounds.

Caution:  This only works for twenty-six inches.  If you use a different length, the weight needs to be different to make it work.

2)  I'm not sure what the spine difference would have to be to break a shaft, but I'm guessing it would need to be more than a few pounds.  

Shafts are very variable.  Even shafts that come from the same tree can vary greatly in spine.  Outside diameter has a lot to do with it, but not everything.  

3)  You can rotate a shaft to match the spine you want.  It is probably best to use the strongest side of the shaft, but using the weakest is probably OK too.  This is one of the methods that I use to match the spine on my arrows.  Find shafts that are close in spine then rotate the shaft to match it better.

Remember, when you mark the shafts the way you want them, the nock goes 90 degrees away from the bend.  In other words, using the spine tester I discussed above, the way the shaft flexes is around the riser on the bow.  Therefore, the direction the weight pulls the shaft is the way you want it to bend.  In order to align the nock correctly, in needs to be 90 degrees away from that so that when you put the arrow on the shelf, the correct side is against the riser.

Marvin