tuning vs shooting in the field?

[T.L]

Hello all.

 I have a question regarding arrow tuning. In the basement I had some arrows shooting bullet holes at 5, 10, and 15 yards. I was very happy.

 I took them out to the field to test them at longer ranges and stump shooting and most of the time they were shooting tail right. The only thing I can think of was that in the basement my form was good whereas in the field I was wearing multiple layers and shooting odd angles etc.

 Obviously I need to pay better attention to my form but from a tuning perspective my question is should you leave shafts slightly weak to compensate for field conditions?

 thanks,
  Tom.

[O.L. Adcock]

Tom, You say you were shooting "bullet holes"...If in paper that is a form of the "kick" method and most folks will wind up overspined everytime using that method. Unless you can "guess" how much underspined you need to be I'd suggest using the planing method.....O.L.

[T.L]

Hi O.L.
 I was shooting through paper after doing some bare-shaft tuning. Both methods were off the "Masters of the Barebow" DVD.
 I will re-read the information on your website and see what happens with that method.
 thanks.
   Tom.

[R H Clark]

T.L
It's a good possibility that it is just the extra distance that is causing a small tune problem to show up more.

I try all the time to tell guys that they can only tune as well as they can shoot.You should tune at the greatest distance that you can consistently shoot a tight group.Thoes 5-15 yard tuning shots are fine to start and get you close to tuned but if you can group farther you can get an even better tune.

On the other hand if someone is spraying arrows all over at longer distance,there is no way to seperate a problem with tuning from a form error.

[O.L. Adcock]

RH, I agree with the longer distances but I disagree with needing the ability to shoot a "tight" groups. It the relationships between the groups, not how big they are. If I can barely keep all my fletched field tips on a big ol' target at 50 yards, and all my wide broadheads or bare shafts miss the bale completely to the left, there is no doubt they are too stiff, no matter my "group" size. If we could wave a magic wand and hand a perfectly tuned bow to a poor shot, that bow is still perfectly tuned. A good shot is going to get good groups even with poor tuning. They aren't related. The good shot isn't going to shoot groups to his potential but the poor shot with good tuning will. Form has nothing to do with tuning....O.L.

[R H Clark]

O.L.
You make a good point and I would agree that if you can see all your bareshafts go left then group size isn't that important.

It has been my experience though that some archers will spray bareshafts all over if their form is bad enough and they are shooting longer distance.When one is high,and one low,one right and one left,it's hard to tell what is going on.

I hate to disagree,as I have a lot of respect for you but form must be consistent to some degree to even be able to tune at all.I've tried to help archers that would even vary their draw length shot to shot, not to mention a lot of other problems that would make an arrow act differently shot to shot.

I guess the point that I was trying to make is that IMHO longer distance tuning can help but for some can be an exercise in futility.

I completly agree if you can see your bareshaft plane the same way more times than not you don't even have to hit the bail to tune.Maby my example of being able to shoot a group isn't the best but you do have to be consistant enough to be able see a pattern.

[O.L. Adcock]

RH,.."make an arrow act differently shot to shot."

That's the key, one shot don't mean squat, it's the average of many that means something. Fletched arrows are going to average closer to center then BH or bare no matter how poor their form is, problem is folks aren't looking for it. A person is trying to get the bow tuned to them as best they can and some good tuning can still be done if they can hit the bale....O.L.

[sweet old bill]

I sure hate to sound like a know it all, but years ago at a easton arrow meeting a former coach of our USA teams ( Al Henderson ) said paper tuning sure does not work for most people.

 It can change from shot to shot. He said he used the easton arrow suggestion grid for arrow spine and then sets his nock point based on past history, then steps back at 6 feet, shoots a arrow into a bale. He then fine tunes the nock point based on arrow position, he wants the arrow to be nock straight in and not up or down and not left or right.

He also said he puts some baby powder on the riser and then shoots one arrow to see drag marks in the rest area. He does all this with fletched arrows and not any with a bare shaft.

what is your process  that works for you ????

[Guru]

I'll let all you "techy's" argue about all that stuff and offer a simple possible answer.....

Was the wind blowing out side?   It doesn't take much to show some "tail" one way or the other. It's happened to me.......

[O.L. Adcock]

Bill, Thanks for bring that up and here in lies the problem:

"USA teams ( Al Henderson ) said paper tuning sure does not work for most people."

"he wants the arrow to be nock straight in and not up or down and not left or right."

Here is a man that "should know" and is giveng advice that few will question. What are folks looking for when they shoot an arrow through paper? Left, right, up, or down kicks, correct? And he says it does not work for most people...THAT I AGREE WITH. Is left/right/up/down not the same thing sticking in a bale?  It is EXACTLY the same thing. So he says one method doesn't work yet a variation of the same method does? Goes to show resumes don't mean much.

Here is another example..."Was the wind blowing out side? It doesn't take much to show some "tail" one way or the other. It's happened to me......."

This fellow is talking about the same "kick" method and probably isn't even aware there is another method to bare shaft tune.


Whoever came up with the "kick" method and those still promotes it to this day has done a huge diservice to archery in general, IMO. It does one of 2 things...Doesn't work and contributes to frustration, or..it makes folks "think" they are well tuned when they aren't. In that case they blame misses and group size on themselves when part of it is their tuning. I'm not sure which is worse....O.L.

[Doc Nock]

Isn't this issue with nock position (KICK) even further confounded by the medium into which you shoot?

I can't think of anything but one type of foam backstop I've ever shot in that every arrow "ended" it's penetration pointing in the same direction.

Each target medium has some internal variations in it (except homogenous foam) that will cause an arrow to "stop" in a different orientation, won't it?

I would think that fact alone would make the "nock orientation" method of "tuning" a real headache?