DAS with 62# arrow penetration 450 gr vs 640gr

[Elk Chaser]

I decided to perform my own test on arrows and penetration.
about 2 years ago I was asking for help from all of you on "whats good for Elk"
The famous question that cannot be answered.
 last year I went Elk Hunting with a 480 gr arrow and a 53# das Bow, did not have an opportunity to shoot with a clean kill.
This year I have more practice with the DAS and have heavier limbs for it norw 62# @ 28  
I decided to have a 480 gr arrow its a Carbon Tech Rhino with 5" sheild cut feathers and for the test I have a doz Carbon Tech Safari's . there much heavier.
So same length arrows 30" my draw is 29" just like the longer arrow??
made up a 30" safari that weighs 640 gr.
Launched them both into a "block " brand new target 5 times each
to my surprise the 640 gr arrow had more pennetration by 18% to 21%
I will be using the 640's on the trip for Elk this year for sure
So if your looking to get some more info there it is
DAS 62# at 28" I am drawing 29"
carbon tech Rhino 480 gr with 145 tip and 5" sheild cut feathers
carbon tech Safari 640 gr with 125 gr tip5" sheild cut feathers
the 640 out pennetrated it every time
hope this info could be useful to someone.
Thanks for all of you help in the past and future.
Bill

[ishiwannabe]

It does make sense...could ya post a pic for us to gander at? Im trying to decide what set up I want to go with for deer in the fall.

[TJ Jones]

How's that Safari shaft flying for you? Those are such a stiff spine. Just a suggestion; bump up your FOC.  Try that Safari shaft with a 145gr point and a 175 or 200gr point and see what that does for penetration. I'd be interested in seeing the results. Good test.

[Elk Chaser]

ishiwannabe
What pics would you like ?
bow arrows arrows in target etc?

TJ
I will shoot some more tomarrow, so you know I shot the safari thru paper and overall there shooting well. not perfect but a 1" tear at 5  yards away

TJ Jones
I will try the 145's but do not have a 200 head Biggest I would hunt with would be a 150 silverflame.
Bill

[njstykbow]

I won't disagree with your end results, but having shot both those shafts, I know that you can't have both shafts tuned properly with the shaft length being equal...especially if you go with a lighter point on the Safari's.  The Rhino's spine .300 and the Safari's are .200 deflection.  One of the shafts isn't tuned for your bow and will negatively affect your penetration.

[Elk Chaser]

njstykbow
Agreed,
 I have the rhinos shooting a single hole the safari's are not. so I will be shooting a heavier head. Do you have any suggestions on the head weight , say 175 gr. or 200? I do not know that a heavier head will compensate for heavier spine but with the initial results I would still hunt with the "mistuned" safaris over the tuned rhinos's
I think that the Safari's are not tuned wich should allow them to pennetrate more making a greater delta in the tests
Bill

[joe vt]

so your saying that a 10.3 gpp (grains per bow pound) arrow out penetrated a 7.7 gpp.

mmmmm never heard that before. lol, jk, not serious, ect.....

i like your test and i think it's a very good experiment that you did on your bow. you will now have greater confidence in your chosen setup.  

if you still have those 53# limbs it would be interesting to see which weight shaft out penetrates the other......and to what %. i would guess that the difference won't be as evident.

[Biggie Hoffman]

DAS bow? Ain't that the one with the metal riser and adjustable arrow rest? You guys are gonna want wheels next..........

[njstykbow]

Biggie, them's some mighty strong words from a guy wrastlin' a deer in his underwear!

Elkchaser,  if you haven't cut all the shafts first, find the heaviest insert/point combo you can find including 100 gr insert and 200 gr point and start with a full length shaft.  Cut it back in 1/2" increments at a time.  NO MORE than that.  That shaft is extremely stiff and with your draw weight, may never properly tune, even with a full length shaft.  I say all this after spending considerable time shooting them from a 66# @ 29.5" DAS where I had to leave them almost full-length, which gave me a 770 gr. shaft.

[Elk Chaser]

First
Biggie NEKED DEER WRASTLIN is not allow on this site.
I understand your comment that the metal riser adj DAS is not for you and I completely respect that .
I like it .
Last year in camp I was shooting targets at 50 yds, HMMMMMMM oh ya no one else was  HMMMMMM

Anyhow here is some more data.
the 460 gr arrow is at 208 fps and the 660  monster is at 184 fps.
I have decided to go in the middle with a 550 to 575 set up to get some of both worlds.

[Elk Chaser]

njstykbow

Thanks for the info on the arrows these are a beast and I am at 66# also on my DAS same as yours.
I am going to go in the middle the Carbon Tech Rhinos 45/70 will shoot a bullett hole bare shaft much better than the Safari's
I just added a 3 gr per inch tube to the center of the Rhino making it 575 with a 150 head. they should be flying about 190 fps and this is what I will be playing with right now.
What arrows have you switched to. I dont think that you stuck with the 770gr ?

DID YA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have a lot of faith in the 550 to 600 range and using the tubes.
Hope this does not change the Spine to much if at all.

Thanks for all of your help
Bill

[Bjorn]

Good test and thanks for sharing the detailed info.

[Elk Chaser]

To finish this off
I have now had another new observation
I took the 660 gr and the 480 to the chrono getting the 210 and 186 then took them home and modified the 480 with w 3 gpi weight tube and a 150 gr head, shot thru paper and excellent paper test. New total weight 570 gr .
So then I shot the 660 thru paper and about a 2-3" tear (with feathers on) and went too get the arrows out of the "block" target.
The 570 gr arrow that was tuned almost perfect had more pennetration than the 660 so I shot them again same result.

differance was about 3/4" more penn with a 575 well tuned to a mistuned 660.
goes to show what papaer tuning can do for arrow flight and pennetration.
and I did use a new side of the target for this test.
I did not want to have you thinking that it was due to an old target , therefore pennetration for both arrows was equal.

Bill

[DAS Kinetic]

Bill,
    I've been trying to get people to understand the importance of arrow/bow tuning for some time.  It is the one aspect of equipment performance that is most neglected.  There are some people who could literally drop 10# of draw weight if they could get truly perfect arrow flight as you have.  In fact my informal tests indicate that penetration is more affected by tuning than arrow weight.  In your test you dropped 115 grs and STILL got better penetration, and a flatter shooting combination to boot.  That's the intelligent appoach to optimizing your equipment.

David

[Shawn Leonard]

Yup, what david said. That is one reason I feel carbon even if lighter out penetrates wood and aluminum as it recivers from paradox so much quicker. I am shooting a tad over 9gpp. and an arrow that is perfectly tuned I get 3 more inches of penetration out of my carbons than a perfectly tuined woodie wieghing 11 gpp. Shawn

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

I agree 100%. Next to absolute arrow integrity, arrow flight is the next most important factor in tissue penetration (at any given impact force).

All the arrow design features that maximize penetration are useless if the arrow suffers a structural failure OR if the arrow flies poorly. These two things MUST be in place before you gain anything significant from the other arrow design features.

Arrow integrity comes in first because any damage, any failure, in the arrow system severely limits penetration AND terminal lethality; such as a shaft, insert, broadhead adaptor or broadhead that bends or breaks on hard tissue impact.  The other arrow features that enhance arrow penetration, perfect flight included, can only come into play if the arrow remains undamaged at impact and during penetration.

Ed