KME Broadhead Sharpener Question?

[Blacktail Archer 83]

Everyone raves about the KME.  So I purchased one and tried it out last night on some 150gr Magnus II.  I am having some trouble.  The angle is far too steep to create a sharp edge.  I would guess the factory edge to be at about 20 degrees.  The kme is about 35 degrees.  Am I doing something wrong here.  I consider myself to be a very proficiant knife sharpener and do it all by hand.  But I am struggling with these darn broadheads.  Any help guys?

[Red Boar]

I was experiencing the same.  Seems like after I bought mine everyone was recommending the knife sharpener instead?   Wondering if I made a mistake?   :confused:   Thanks for helping Nick and I out.

[KSdan]

Check with Ron at KME. . . they really are "beyond" excellent sharpeners.  Once you get through the learning curve you will love  it.  I will not speak for Ron- but I think you will find that you need to file the tip where the triple metal is.  You need to get that angle down to the same bevel as the rear of the blade.  You do this by marking it with a marker first.  

Check with Ron. . .  

Let us know once you get it figured out.

[Blacktail Archer 83]

Thanks for the help.. I will have to check with Ron.  But if there is anyone else out there that can steer me in the right direction it would be much appreciated.

[KentuckyTJ]

The KME is dependent on the stones you use it on. You need to rework the angle with a very course stone and then work your way finer. The first time you start a new head you should spend at least 30 minutes on it getting it right.

[IronCreekArcher]

Is the broadhead sharpener adjustable for angle?

[Blacktail Archer 83]

I have always used arkansas stones from soft, hard, and then to black.  I do have a diamond stone that is a little more coarse.  The angle just seems too steep.  But I will give it a try.  Thanks for the tip KentuckyTJ.

[Red Boar]

Originally posted by KentuckyTJ:
The KME is dependent on the stones you use it on. You need to rework the angle with a very course stone and then work your way finer. The first time you start a new head you should spend at least 30 minutes on it getting it right.

Hey Tom...are you saying that we are actually changing the edge angle?  The Grizzly Stik Samurais have a 25 degree single bevel.  That is the recommended angle...is it wise to change it? Thanks, bud.
 BTW: I have 4 Arkansas stones, all the way from the  included medium combination stone to Super Fine Grit Dan's Hard Translucent Arkansas Stone.

[Blacktail Archer 83]

Well guys I thank you for your input.  But I just got off the phone with Ron over at KME and needless to say we managed to figure it out.  And by the way I apologize, the broadheads I am sharpening are the Magnus Stingers not the Magnus II.   Ron was more than helpful in explaining that the edge is meant to be changed to a slightly steeper angle.  Not only does this create a double bevel edge, but it creates a much more durable edge.   Thanks again for the help Ron.  
Nick

[KentuckyTJ]

Just saw your questions guys. Yep you have to rework the angle.

Nick, I shoot the Stingers as well and they do take a lot of time to rework as the steel is much harder than most of the two blade heads. Keep at it you will be amazed.

Tim, I posed the same question to Ron at KME about the manufacturers recommended angles a few years ago and he said just to trust him. I did and he was right.

Don't fight it Ron can sharpen a cooked noodle.

[Sharpster]

Sorry for the delay guys,

I stared tyin a reply at around 2 AM but, at that hour, I was havin trouble puting coherent sentences together...

Nick just called and we think he's got it figured out but, he's still at work and he's gonna let me know after he gets home in a couple hours.

Red Boar,

We're not changing the bevel per say, we're just adding a very narrow secondary bevel right at the very cutting edge. It's called a duplex bevel and it's a commonly used bevel geometry among knife makers for making cutting edges extremely sharp and very durable. You still have your 25 degree primary bevel but right at the cutting edge, it increases to about 26 or 27 degrees.

There's a huge difference in the amount of time it takes to sharpen an "out of the pack" laminated tip BH like a Magnus II or Zwicky Delta, and a BH that comes out of the pack with well ground bevels like a Magnus Stinger or your Samurais.

Unless you're Samurais are very dull from heavy use, you shouldn't need to use the coarse side of the Norton stone. I'm gonna post a tutorial on sharpening single bevels in the next couple days. We started shooting pictures for it yesterday and I may even do a quick video too. In the mean time, here's how you do it:

90% of the "work" on a single bevel is done on the bevel side. (I use a back/forth motion to speed up the process). With the coarsest grit stone that you're going to use, (in your case the fine side of the Norton), work just the bevel side until you have raised a burr. It doesn't need to be big and heavy, just a light  continuous burr from tip to heel. This should take aboue 2 minutes max. Now don't do anything with the burr just yet. Instead go to the hard Arkansas and do the same thing to polish the bevel. As you do this, the burr will get a little bigger. When the bevel is polished to your liking, flip the clamp and using all forward strokes, do the absolute minimum necessary to remove the burr from the unbeveled side. I'll do 3-5 forward passes down the stone and check the edge for sharpness... not quite there...? do a couple more and check again. When the blade feels sharp, finish it up by doing a short series of forward strokes fliping the clamp every pass, just like you would a double bevel. This will prevent a burr from re-forming on either side of the blade. It should shave hair readilly at this point. As a last step, I'll strop the blade on a piece of plain corrugated cardboard. Leave the head in the sharpener and pull it backwards along the cardboard about 10 passes on one side of the blade then 10 more on the other side, then 1 flip, 1 flip, 1 flip. The head should now shave effortlessly. Give that a try and let me know how you make out.

I've had people question if this isn't putting a micro bevel on the unbeveled side? The answer is it shouldn't because we're only spending enough time on the unbeveled side to remove the burr, and the burr is actually built up above the flat surface of the unbeveled side. We're just taking off the burr and don't really go so far as to create a micro-bevel. Even if we do, the bevel would only be a few thousandths wide at most. I know Ed Ashby fairly well and we have talked about this. Ed says, even if we do go so far as to create a micro bevel on the unbeveled side, he's seen no difference in performance or rotation in his testing.

Anyone have any questions? Thanks guys,

Ron
800 561-4339

[Red Boar]

Great explanation, Ron!  I can now relax about creating a "secondary" edge.  I am really looking forward to your video on sharpening single bevels.  Thanks, again.  

Tim    

[Red Boar]

I found the information posted by Ron very helpful.  I decided to put it in "step form" so that folks could copy, paste and print it if they wanted.  Hope this is okay with you Ron.


      Use of the KME Broadhead Sharpener on single bevel broadheads (as described by Ron)

First:    We're not changing the bevel per say, we're just adding a very narrow secondary bevel right at the very cutting edge.  It's called a duplex bevel and it's commonly used bevel geometry among knife makers for making cutting edges extremely sharp and very durable.  You still have your 25 degree primary bevel but right at the cutting edge, it increases to about 26 or 27 degrees.

Secondly:    There's a huge difference in the amount of time it takes to sharpen an "out of the pack" laminated tip BH like a Magnus II or Zwicky Delta, and a BH that comes out of the pack with well ground bevels like a Magnus Stinger or your Samurai.

Steps

1. 90% of the "work" on a single bevel is done on the bevel side. (I use a back/forth motion to speed up the process). With the coarsest grit stone that you're going to use, (in your case the fine side of the Norton), work just the bevel side until you have raised a burr. It doesn't need to be big and heavy, just a light continuous burr from tip to heel. This should take about 2 minutes max.

2  Now,  don't do anything with the burr just yet.

3. Instead go to the hard Arkansas and do the same thing to polish the bevel. As you do this, the burr will get a little bigger.

4. When the bevel is polished to your liking, flip the clamp and using all forward strokes, do the absolute minimum necessary to remove the burr from the unbeveled side. I'll do 3-5 forward passes down the stone and check the edge for sharpness... not quite there...? Do a couple more and check again.

5. When the blade feels sharp, finish it up by doing a short series of forward strokes flipping the clamp every pass, just like you would a double bevel. This will prevent a burr from re-forming on either side of the blade. It should shave hair readily at this point.

6. As a last step, I'll strop the blade on a piece of plain corrugated cardboard. Leave the head in the sharpener and pull it backwards along the cardboard about 10 passes on one side of the blade then 10 more on the other side, then 1 flip, 1 flip, 1 flip. The head should now shave effortlessly.

Give that a try and let me know how you make out.

Note:    I've had people question if this isn't putting a micro bevel on the unbeveled side? The answer is it shouldn't because we're only spending enough time on the unbeveled side to remove the burr, and the burr is actually built up above the flat surface of the unbeveled side. We're just taking off the burr and don't really go so far as to create a micro-bevel. Even if we do, the bevel would only be a few thousandths wide at most. I know Ed Ashby fairly well and we have talked about this. Ed says, even if we do go so far as to create a micro bevel on the unbeveled side, he's seen no difference in performance or rotation in his testing.

Ron
800 561-4339

[Sharpster]

Absolutely fine with me Tim, and nicely done too.  

The only thing I would like to add is that the process is exactly the same for doing double bevel heads except that you give equal treatment to both sides of the blade, and you'll need to start with a much coarser grit for laminated tip heads or any blade that's very dull.

Now let me know if it works or not...    

Ron

[Doc Nock]

...and from personal experience, Ron...if one has used a 'pull through" carbide V sharpener, you will have more work ahead of you as some of them make a very thin 20* or less angle on double bevel edges.

It takes time to scour (only word I can think of) through all that metal to get back to a more durable 25* bevel per side with your BH sharpener.

I know, I know...the degree changes depending on the WIDTH of the BH, but geeze, Son..we ain't building a freakin piano!    

[Blacktail Archer 83]

Well needless to say with Ron's help and little cardboard trick I have a scary sharp broadhead!  Thanks again for the expert help Ron!

[LA Trapper]

Blacktail Archer 83-

That cardboard trick seals the deal.

I called Ron a couple of months ago as I just couldn't finish off my 125 grain Grizzlies to what was claimed.  

Ron informed me about the cardboard trick and the same box they shipped in, polished out the heads.  

It does work.

Billy

[Bill Carlsen]

One little trick I use is to first get a hollow gound edge on the blade using a wheelie type knife sharpener or  the Simmons wheel braodhead sharpener. It makes getting the razor edge very simple as it reduces the amount metal that needs to be removed to get that edge really sharp.

[bama]

What exactly is a single bevel and a hollow ground?

[Charlie Lamb]

bama... a single bevel head is only ground on one side, like a chisel. Click on the Abowyer add at the top of the main page to find pics.

Hollow ground is when the blade is ground on a wheel and it's kind of hollowed out between the heel of the grind and the edge from the curvature of the wheel.