Weighted inserts spine?

[Hud]

Richie, there is an article in Primitive Archer, Feb/Mar. 2009 by Robert Hurst on The Bare Shaft Method. This article and the above mentioned, both discuss weak vs stiff and their grouping.

[katman]

"Putting too much weight out front will result in a loss of trajectory"

Putting to much weight in the entire arrow setup will result in a loss of trajectory. The arrow does not know where the weight is when it is motion. In fact if the higher foc arrow stabilizes quicker it looses less energy recovering from paradox then it may see less of a drop in trajectory all else being equal. I do not believe the old saying efoc arrows nosedive, at least mine don't.

The internal footing sounds like it is worth a try. OL had a thread about internal footings and what worked on this site, do a search. Let us know how it works.

[Ragnarok Forge]

Are you tied to those particular arrows?  I am using the Axis FMJ arrows and love them.  Skinny, tough and shoot great. Are you bare shaft to fletched tuning?  This is the best method I have found to get my arrows tuned to the bow.

Easton makes and FMJ in a 250 spine that should tune out perferct at your draw length and mass up front.  You can get half a dozen ordered at any archery shop.  Just remember with the inserts that you want to cut the length off the back of the arrow as you work on tuning.

[Hud]

First, I apologize for getting off topic, which was the question about weighted inserts. In my experience although arrow weight is important, and too much weight may not work for everyone. It is an will remain a personal choice and everyone should do what works for them.

Yes, I agree added weight in inserts or adapters has the effect of reducing spine.

[Richie Nell]

Well...I have the CX 350's now and want to make sure they will not work before I get other ones.  I did just read about he FMJ's.  
The arrow I have been tuning with is fletched and shows too weak.

[xtrema312]

Richie,  Where does your bare haft arrow go and what hand do you shoot?  I may have missed it in the thread.  If I understand correctly your arrow is kicking left?  Are you left handed?

Your arrow set-up in the spine calculator is like 40# dynamic spine, and your bow is like 80.  Your draw length with that weight bow and standard carbons is just not an easy fit.  Here is what you can do to get a base line.  Get some good silencers on the bow.  Nice heavy ones.  Drop down to max 200 gr. on the front.  Build out your side plate 1/4" or so past center.  That could get you in the ball park.  The brass inset will stiffen the shaft more than all point weight so I would stay with that and it may get you 225 on the end.  That would get you over 16% FOC and over 600 gr.  Bow tuning could get you set with that.  I know that is not quite what you are after, but at your weight and draw length that is some serious killing power.  

Now to go heavier you can add internal full length weight.  I have not used the CE’s, but if they have the same ID as other standard carbons, you could use the GT nock end inserts and weight system.  That would offset the front weight and give you arrow weight and a stiffer dynamic spine.  Again you will be on the lower side of the

FOC.  More FOC will be a little harder.  Footing is probably where you want to go.  It will stiffen the shaft and provide FOC.  I have read some stuff on footing, but not much that really explained its effect overall on arrow dynamic spine and FOC.  

One option could be some footing or what ever you would call it when placed at the back of the arrow.  That would add nock end weight to stiffen the shaft’s dynamic spice and stiffen the shaft by reducing the flex of the shaft.  You get double effect from that where footing the point weakens some by adding point weight and stiffens the shaft by reducing flex.  I have never read anything about adding footing to the back of the arrow, but I think in theory it would work.  You would lose some FOC.  

I am wondering if anyone has ever tried to add footing to the center of the shaft.  It would stiffen the center of the bend.  It would add centered weight so not shift the FOC much.  I have no idea what all that would do, but it does make me wonder.  I am thinking it would substantially stiffen the arrow, but could cause some odd flexing stuff, buy crating multiple bending areas rather than one bending area.

You need some specialized help.  It is the place to get it.  Maybe a second post on footing shafts would help attract the right responses.

[Richie Nell]

Thanks extrema,
Correct...I am shooting right handed (string hand) and the arrow is kicking left.  
I just tried some aluminum external footings.  NO LUCK.  I cut a 7 inch piece and slid over the front of the carbon.  I think the weight of the footing just keeps it weak.  I was thinking maybe a stiff piece of aluminum would actually stiffen the arrow to enable the use of 350-400 grains up front.

A 200 grain field tip with the 100 gr. insert shoots fine.  If I could get the insert out I feel like my 285-315 grain Grizzlies with adapters would work well with the normal inserts.

But...I am trying to get more than that and I really appreciate you guys riding this train to nowhere with me.  

Not to be redundant, but I would like to get a 31 inch shaft stiff enough to put 400 grains up front pushed with 70 lbs.

I will keep searching and thanks again.

[Three Arrows]

Richie, from what I am told, the CE 350's are overspined for 70# at 30".  Please contact one of the arrow merchants on this site and get advice.  I shoot up to 400gr up front with no problems.  They shoot side by side with 2317's.  I have my PTF set at 9" brace 5/8's over center for nock.  I am shooting a 4 fletch with 250gr.  I have shot 350-400gr out of this same set up.  Maybe my eyes are bad but the arrows don't seem to care for the difference in spine.  My advice is to shoot them using a release if you really want to tune them properly to the bow.  After that is tuned, go back to your finger release.

[Richie Nell]

Chuc,
I have strictly been using the fletched carbon you sent to get my current results.  With the 100 grain insert and a 200 gr. field point it shoots good.  I seem to get a left kick with anything heavier than the 300 total up front.  Like I mentioned above(another post) if I used normal inserts I think the 285-315 Grizzlys I normally use would work fine but I want to do more than that.  I really like the idea of the heavy inserts but I want the heavy heads as well making up a total of about 400 grains.  
The fletched arrow I am using(I got from you) is 31 inches from nock groove to end of brass. I am pulling almost every bit of that.

I wonder if the one inch difference in your arrow is the critical difference in how our arrows perform. Yours working and mine not.

I normally like to fletch with nanner style turkey feathers.  That may stiffen it up a bit but probably not enough to shoot 400 grains.

BTW Chuc,  The gamegetters are some fine aluminum arrows.  They shoot perfect.  Love the inserts in them.  They are very pretty arrows as well.  

I'm still searching.
 
Thanks Chuc

[Three Arrows]

Well then, put some inserts and heads on the full length and start from there bareshafting.

[Richie Nell]

When I get to a vice to get the brass inserts I may can do that.  
Although I am not sure how that would help.  Anything longer than the 31 inches I have now and unfletched will be weaker.  The 31 inch fletched arrow is as short as it can be.

BTW,
I was just shooting the Gamegetters.  I chronographed them with a 300 gr. field point and 100 gr. insert making the total weight 850 grains.
They shot 173 fps.  Not bad I guess.

[joebuck]

Your not going to like what I'm going to say Richie...........but.............a 2317 is .200 deflection. I LOVE a 2317..shot them for 20 years......Now i shoot...........you guessed it GrizStic Safaris..200 deflection also.  I shoot a 820 grain arrow including a 185 grain head....bare shaft out to 25 yards out of my 66# bow at 29 1/2"..........Contineous tapers are so easy to tune and recover so quickly....Your trying to tune a .350 deflection arrow with 200 grain head....it's flying like a tuning fork............You need 200 deflection..

[Richie Nell]

Joey,
That is exactly what I am trying not to admit without exhausting all of my options with the CX 350's I have now.

Oh yea the 2317 are a dream arrow for my bow.  I am just trying to step up a bit to another setup.
Its fun.

I love the heavy arrow like you mention with the Grizz's.  My druthers would be to have the liberty to get that heavy weight up front rather than be forced to have it throughout the shaft.

yea I guess I want my cake and eat it too.

[xtrema312]

Originally posted by Richie Nell:


BTW,
I was just shooting the Gamegetters.  I chronographed them with a 300 gr. field point and 100 gr. insert making the total weight 850 grains.
They shot 173 fps.  Not bad I guess.

Ya not bad.    :rolleyes:    :D  I wish I had your problem.  :D

[Three Arrows]

I don't think the CE 350's are .200 deflection.  The number on these particular arrows are not representative of deflections.  CE 90's, 150's, 250's, and 300's.

[katman]

CE heritage 350 list as .320 on the web site.

Grizzlysticks being larger in the front have some built in foc, the fmj may work since it spines at .250

[joebuck]

I have a pretty good source for Griz Stics  :D  . I'll keep my eyes open if any Safaris seconds pop up again....