"How do we know, Dad?"

[DCM]

I think whitetails got better sense than to sit and look at TV, even if they did have thumbs to work the remote.  And they sure as heck know they've been shot, or shot at, and what that means.  I don't think they begrudge us for hunting them any more than the coyote hates the rabbit.  Sometimes things just are as they are, and justification is not necessary.  Wild things understand better than we do, obviously, their role in the food chain, and ours.  The law of nature works beautifully, but only because it is brutal, unrelenting and unforgiving.  Else we would have all, both man and beast, long since perished from this earth.  But there is also beauty inherent in that perseverance.  Which is why whitetails got better sense than to sit and look at TV.

Hope you and yours are well John.  I remember fondly those old days (@ U of L?) when you were posting yer doins and seeing them chillin still in PJs with sock feet.  Time is sure slippin away from us.

[John Scifres]

I thank you all for your thoughtful responses.  I suppose I should elaborate. I have always taught my children that we should respect all animals and nature in general. But, deer are not people. They don't have emotions and families like us. They aren't thinking creatures in the way that humans are. They do not grieve like we do. And while I do believe in a sentience scale, the gap between non-humans and humans is immense. Think of it like this, bugs are a .01 on the scale, deer are a .2, pachyderms and porpoises are a 1, some primates are a 2 and humans are a 100.

Here's my incomplete and inadequate answer I gave to James.

 

There are a lot of ways to judge intelligence; complicated language, pre-planning, tool use, emotional attachment, and family bonds being among them. Deer only exhibit primitive versions of all of these. They are a food animal. God has a plan in His creation. Deer are here as a beautiful part of the animal kingdom but also as food.

I guess that was enough for him to chew on for now. He isn't questioning the place deer hold at all. He is more pumped about getting a solo deer than ever.  He's just like the rest of us, trying to figure where we fall in relation to it all.  The progression is heartening for a father  

James and I talked a lot about it last night as I was putting him to bed.  It's so fun to watch him work it out without giving him the answers like when he was younger.  There is a sentience scale within humans as well; as we age, as we learn, as we think.  And we never get to 100 on that one.

[Don Stokes]

Good thoughts, John.

Love, hate, fear of death- all exclusively human emotions. Only humans can speculate on the awareness of the other animals.

[dragon rider]

To me it's clear that deer are both sentient and intelligent.  As an easy example, I frequently see them reacting to my dogs.  When the dogs are inside the fence, the deer look at them as if they were saying "Bark all you want; that fence won't let you do anything I care about."  When we're outside the fence, although the dogs are leashed, the same deer react very differently.  A large canine not contained by a fence is an occasion to depart the premises post haste.  On pure instinct they'd run in either case.

It's also becoming apparent that in pressured areas, they're starting to look for trouble from above, even in areas where there haven't been any cougars/pumas/panthers/mountain lions for decades.  That suggests that they are learning the role of tree stands in their lives.  

To me, that doesn't mean that they should not be hunted as food. In the final sense, we're all food for something.  Our own reign at the top of the food chain is also temporary.  At some point we die and the remains become food, if only for bacteria and microbes.  Nobody stays at the top of the food chain forever.

The fact that they are sentient and intelligent, and downright tasty, means to me that we have an obligation to hunt them ethically and respectfully, to kill as cleanly as we can, to practice shooting diligently to assure that outcome and to take the food they provide respectfully and gratefully.  We are all part of the great circle of life and should try, knowing that none of us will ever be perfect, to conduct ourselves with respect to other life forms accordingly.

[Izzy]

I think "THINK", not.I believe they are a highly tuned or evolved survival machine honed by instincts that are turned on 27-7.But man, their instincts are impressive.Thats what I tell my boys.My 9 year old has asked me the same question many times about everything from snakes, sheepshead, mantises and everything else we have discoverd together.I dont tell him that thats how ot is but I tell him that thats what I believe.Sure makes life interesting though when you search for answers to questions like this.

[b.glass]

I like everyones responses.

Brian good post.

Killdeer, your remarks put me in mind of the "wise one" speaking at council fire.

VAFarmer I especially like your last comment.

Good thread John.

Bona  

[Horner]

I have a very deep respect for all of Gods creatures.  I think they are here for us to take care of and to eat.  However, respect for life must always be thought about.

Here is a little something I think about from time to time, even though it took place 17 years ago.

My father and I were squirrel hunting.  I was not hunting with a bow at the time, but you will get the picture.  I killed a squirrel that day, that was way to close for the weapon I was using.
Anyway when we got back to the house and started skinning my father picked up that squirrel and new immediately what I had done.
He told me there is no use in even skinning this there is nothing to him.  He said, to me you need to see, so you will learn.  So we slit the back and pulled down the hide, and I was educated that day, the hard way.
After seeing what I had done, I was very upset with myself.  

I remember thinking I can't eat this animal, so I wasted his life.

That is how I look at hunting today and how I feel about the animals I hunt.  I never want to take a life of one of Gods creature unless it has a purpose for being taken.

Also wanted to say that purpose could be also, for protecting other creatures.  Take the wolf for example.  He needs to be harvested to protect other animals.
However, I would not even think about eating one of those guys.

[Crash]

Good thought provoking responses, just what I would expect here.  I don't believe that animals have human emotions due to the fact that we have a "self" or "soul" where we can step back and observe ourself and compare our present situation to previous ones and say, this is the worst I have ever felt.  Animals only know pain or no pain, hunger or no hunger.  I do believe in treating animals with respect due to the fact that they are a gift from God and therefore do not belong to us.

[Bonebuster]

I believe a large part of what animals do is pure instinct. I also believe they have the ability to "think".

Male bears eat cubs if given the opportunity.
Does he "think" about what he is doing?
A wounded deer is often abused by healthy deer.
Do they "think" as they do this?

Have you ever had a deer suddenly look up into your eyes, as you are perched high in a treestand, with no apparent reason to know that you are there, or know EXACTLY where you are?

I am in awe at the joy animals add to my life.
From the Beta fish in the glass bowl on the back of my toilet, to the dog(s) on my couch, and the chickens in the coup in my back yard.

My heart aches for the deer, on winters nights when it`s so cold that it hurts to breathe, and my heart aches when I have something I must do instead of getting the chance to HUNT them.

There is much more to learn.

[JAG]

I have sat at the fire ring, pondering and discussing just this theme.  We smoked the Pipe and passed it from the elder to the youngest.
This has been discussed for eons...since time first wakened.
To hunt has been part of man's heritage since ancient times.  Hunt to feed himself and kin.
If each will examine their deepest soul, they shall find that urge, nay, need to hunt.  Without it we become herd animals.  
We are predators, not prey.  Without this deep seated ability and will, we turn from predator to prey.  Just where modern society wishes us to be.
I will stay far away from the herd.  Instead I will hunt it, until my last campfire dims to cold ashes.
I agree with Killdeer.  This is something to take to heart and ponder, deeply.
May your meat pole be full and the wind to your face.  Good hunting my friends.
Johnny/JAG

[Raven]

JAG