carbon + FOC + flight + penetration + kill pics

[Fishnhunt]

Guys

I'm tweaking my hunting arrow setup and need some help with arrow mechanics, etc.  My current hunting arrows are full length Axis ST 500 skinny carbons with 100 grain brass inserts, 125 grain broadheads,  three 4" slightly offset feathers and a reflective wrap.  This arrow weighs in at about 513 grains and has been hitting hard out of my 40lb bow.  It is time to buy new arrows and I want to stay with the Axis ST 500s and keep the overall weight at 513 grains but I am thinking about tweaking the weight distribution.  Of the total 513 grains, I am currently achieving about 225 grains 'up front' via the 100 grain brass insert and 125 grain broadhead.

My questions are as follows:   What, if anything, would happen to flight, accuracy, penetration, structural integrity if I achieved the 225 grains up front by using the factory supplied aluminum HIT insert and a 200 or so grain broadhead and no brass insert.  In other words I would be putting all of the weight into the broadhead instead of having some of the weight in the head and some of the weight further back in the brass insert.  This might be the type of thing that I have to experiment with but I'd like to get some feedback on y'alls intial thoughts.

Thank you!!

here is my latest kill.  I just learned how to post pics.      

[Rob DiStefano]

sounds like what you already are using is working.  

what is your bow's holding weight at full draw?

[Fishnhunt]

Rob thanks for the response. At my draw the bow is at 40 lbs.  For the most part I have been really surprised w/ the penetration.  I dont know if its the skinny arrows or the ferrule > shaft size or the non helical fletch but these arrows are hitting hard.  My first kill of the year was doe at 19 yards quartering away.  The arrow entered the nearside ribcage meat, went thru the spine, thru the farside ribcage meat and lodged into the off shoulder plate.  The 100 grain brass insert bent, shattering the axis 500 and the broadhead broke at the threads. I am not sure if the breakage was from the impact OR the aftermath of a spined doe in death throes.  The pic above was a spike shot at 16 yards and the arrow also hit the spine full on at the lowest part of the neck (bad shot my fault) just in front of front shoulder. The head lodged deep in the bone where only the alum adapter was visible. Another deer was hit broadside at 21 yards and the arrow went zipped in and out and stuck deep into the ground w/o appearing to even slow down. But here is the crazy thing...this weekend I shot 2 hogs while stalking. One was shot in his bed no more than 11-12 feet from me. He was under a loblolly pine facing away from me....belly down, chin on ground, ears at the alert and the arrow entered his back missing the spine but angling deep towards the vitals.  The problem was that I did not get nearly as much penetration as I had wanted (the arrow did not pop out on the bottom side of chest).  He was a BIG pig and I wouldve thought I'd get more penetration.  It seem that I am getting WORSE penetration as closer yardages??

[hogdancer]

I have taken that same shot on a pig with a heavier bow and did not get complete penetration ,that's just part of being a hog I guess.  sounds like what you are shooting now is right for your bow. I would'nt worry about all the FOC stuff, just keep doing what your doing, seems to work well for you.

[Rob DiStefano]

is there any reason for not upping your bow holding draw weight a good 20 percent?  

heavy arras, high foc and razor sharp broadheads are all fine 'n' dandy, but ya still need some serious oomph to deliver the goods to tough critters like hogs.  i wouldn't use much less than 50#.

[Brian Krebs]

Native Americans bows were pretty much that weight;and worked fine. I doubt they weighed their arrows... accuracy and sharpness of the broadhead I think reins over all things archery.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Brian Krebs:
Native Americans bows were pretty much that weight;and worked fine. I doubt they weighed their arrows... accuracy and sharpness of the broadhead I think reins over all things archery.

for the very most part, native american indians lived in the woods and on the prairies and had the consummate hunting skills to get really close to their quarry.  

hunting with lightweight bows means your gear selection, broadhead sharpness and hunting kill distance range become critical as compared to using bow with more muscle.

those of us who don't live in the bush, off the land, and in the 21st century, should use as heavy a bow as one can master ... in addition to sharp broadheads of decent design and as heavy an arrow as possible.

[wingnut]

Actually Native Americans found that stampeding buffalo over a cliff was more effective then shooting a light weight bow.  Now today's 40 pound bows are equvilent to 60# selfbows.  So I'm not one to critisize the bow at all.

Everything has got to be right to do the job but it can be done.  I took a 200# hog a couple years back with a 38# bamboo backed bow and had both an entrance and a exit hole.  That's all I can ask.

Mike

[Bill Carlsen]

To answer your question about arrow performance. I shoot Axis or Beman shafts and either use the regular inserts with 220 grain Phantoms or I use 100 grain inserts and use 125 grain Phantoms or 150 grain Razorcaps. I really can't tell any difference in the performance of either set up.

[Fishnhunt]

Bill - Thank you. Thats helps to answer my question.

Thanks to everybody who has weighed in! I really appreciate all of the thoughts.  513 grains is about as high as I can go with this bow and still maintain my accuracy. I can handle a much heavier bow but I feel quite indebted/attached to this bow since it was my first trad bow and I learned to tradshoot with it.  The bow is a 1965 Damon Howatt Ventura that I got for $35 and its the most fun bow I have ever shot. I love the california style handle and the green glass.  I will probably accumulate more bows later but right now I'm spending all my time practicing and don't want to re learn a new bow.  I'll keep yall updated on my hunts.  The season here is LOOONNG.  I shoot bow only so my 'archery season' spans gun season.  This year I think its October 3rd - January 17th.
   
Take care!

[Rob DiStefano]

chris, in the short run, only you can determine what tackle works best for you.  

opinions of others are just that - other peoples ideas of what works for them.  

how you and i would shoot the same bow and arra could be quite different - and so could be the arra performance and broadhead penetration.  

there's just no substitute for hand's on testing if you have the money and time.  arras with screw-in ferrules and adapters are relatively easy to tweak for both foc and total weight.  here's one of many ways to do just that ...

 http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=080153#000010  

as i stated before, sounds like your tackle is already working for ya, and that's a good thing.

[NorthernCaliforniaHunter]

It could be that at short range your arrow hadn't yet recovered completely after the archer's paradox and thus the energy wasn't 100% behind the broadhead?

[Hud]

You mentioned using a 125 gr. broadhead, but not the make or number of blades. Personally, a 3:1 ratio 2 blade like a Grizzly, properly sharpened may give you that added penetration. Chris if the hog is dead, and didn't run off into the jungle, you did everything anyone could ever ask. If you run into too many big ones, please call.

[Apex Predator]

Putting your weight in the broadhead verses broadhead/insert is so close to the same it won't matter!

[Fishnhunt]

Guys thanks again for into. The main reason I am thinking about 'moving weight' around is so that I can get into a bigger/thicker broadhead w/ a 3:1 ratio.  Not too many 3:1's in the 125 grain finished weight category.  The 125s I'm using are the 2 blade black Magnus unvented steel broadheads w/ alum adapter. I've been knocking off the needle tip and then sharpening them with sandpaper.  I figure if I went to a smaller brass insert I could go with a bigger broadhead which can get me into the 3:1 ratio. Right now I'm considering using a) the 75 grain brass inserts w/ the 145 grizzlies or b) no brass insert but a 100 grain light green grizzly glued to a 100 grain steel adapter and screwing that into the 16 grain factory HIT alum insert.  I think I'll try both of the latter ideas and see which one flies better.
The main problem has been sharpening the single bevel grizzlies. Sharpening single bevels, much like shooting, seems to be a skill and its taking me some time to pick it up.

[Rob DiStefano]

consider using a 125gr woodsman head, epoxied to the adapter weight of yer choice.

[Fletcher]

Less penetration on very close shots isn't at all uncommon.  The fletching hasn't had a chance to straighten the arrow so it is still a bit sideways when it hits.  I like to paper tune my arrows so I can see what is going on close to the bow and get them flying straight at 6-10 feet.  Hi speed photography shows the arrow to flex from paradox for a long ways downrange; nothing that I know of to stop or minimize that.

The Woodsman is a great head that seems to work well with lower poundage bows and they are easy to sharpen.  I have a spare I can send if you want to try one.  One of the new heavier VPA Terminators may be just the ticket for you.

How does the sandpaper sharpening work for you?

[JCJ]

I appreciate your story. Due to an injury I have been forced to go down in poundage from the mid 60's to my current comfort level which is a bow that is 38-39# at my 30.5-31" draw weight. It is a 1965 Howatt Monterey. I am shooting full length Easton 1916's with 150 gr. Woodsman Elites.  The arrows bareshaft perfectly and field points and broadheads group together so tuning seems good. That said, I have been very apprehensive about the set-ups effectiveness on whitetail deer. I may try again  to get some 500 carbons to tune as you did and get my FOC higher which should insure adequate penetration. When I originally tried Beman ICS 500's I added a 100 gr. insert and tried 125 &145 gr. points. They always reacted as too stiff. Maybe going to a skinny shaft will work as it will slightly increase my bows centershot. Or I will experiment with a heavier point like a 175gr. or 200gr.

[Rob DiStefano]

jcj, ya might consider stuffing the ics 500 shaft with a weighted tube section - doing so can really fine tune both the arra's total weight and foc, which will most likely decrease the spine ...

 http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=080153