Fair or Unfair. Stumped by an anti...

[Chris O]

Killdeer has said it!

Unless your friend is a vegan I really don't think she can say anything negative about hunting. I assume that she just doesn't understand how meat gets to the grocery store. Those animals are treated horrifically, fed garbage and killed in a despicable manor. If she promotes those things over hunting, which has served man just fine for our entire existence, then that is up to her.

There's a pretty good documentary on how our store bought food is grown, processed and shipped called Food Inc. I would definitely suggest watching it. It is available to watch instantly for anyone who has netflix.

[don kauss]

I will add more later, but for now, if you are looking for an example of animals who use techniques similar to bow hunters, there are spiders who do sit quietly, motionless, camouflaged, waiting for prey, and certain species in fact fabricate (from their spinnerets) and use bolos...

[tradtusker]

"The "I hunt because I am a predator" argument doesn't hold water"
Unfortunately it usually does not, and thats unfortunate because i believe it to be true and part of the reason i hunt for food.
Its a tricky subject everyone has there "opinion".

I Guess deep down i do sometimes get offended when someone comes out with a stupid disrespectful, un true opinion on some form of hunting. I have spoken to a lot of people in length about hunting not all agree, sometime they change there views.
I make sure to always be polite and respectful when i decide to talk about hunting with an anti-hunter, i explain that i will be truthful and support my argument with FACTS and expect the same from them.

I also believe hunting to be a great management tool and often bring that up in the conversation, you often get blank meaningless points against it.

I ask questions you dont always need to burst out into a ramble about why you should hunt. Ask questions.

 "Oh when did you go deer hunting?"

" on what first hand experience do you base your opinion?"  (because its usually emotion and not from experience)

" tell me sir/miss, do you know the gestation period of said animal?
when are the young born? why?
what are there habitat requirements?,
 what do they eat? are they browsers, grazers perhaps? maybe both?
what is there rage?
 are they an endemic species to this area?,
 what depends upon them for food?, are there any species that directly depend upon them within the ecosystem they inhabit?, how about indirectly? what are they and why/how do the depend on them?  

I have yet to find a person who could answer these basic questions, do you know the answers to those questions? you should, basic questions. whys that important? well as you ask these they will soon realize they know little about said animal in question, and so will the people listening in. They will point out everyone is entitled to there opinion, and thats true but some opinions hold more value then others, they are supposed to evolve as you learn more. Preferably from first hand experience withing the field.
who is more qualified to manage the sustainable future of the said animal and the ecosystem in which it lives? how can someone in an office block in London or New york dictate how we should managed our wildlife? How can someone who has never been hunting tell you not to take part in it? tell you its wrong? Cruel? Based on what?

ask the anti hunter " you wouldn't walk into a heart surgeons operating room and tell him how to do his work? of course not...why wouldn't you? because your not qualified?

and based on the fact they now realize they know nothing about the animals which you hunt and manage their opinion is not all as valid as they first thought.

best to lead by example, on our property in South Africa we had a great first hand example, I have taken many anti hunters, vegetarians into the bush and show them,
the trees and grasses are endemic to the area (ill name them), the animal herds where managed in line with the carrying capacity of the land 9ill explain what carrying capacity is and how its calculated), the land is sustaining all the animals needs naturally, we never need to bring in food from outside even in low rainfall periods because we'd planned for that possibility when determining the carrying capacity.
I would explain how we could hunt the animals that lived of this untouched land and the many purposes and uses that animals death, in management, meat as food, the hunt as an enjoyment a lesson and way of life.  
I would then point across our boundary at the huge Center pivot lands, with tomatoes, potatoes, onions....id say "that land used to look like this, how many trees can you see over there now? its been clear felled, plowed, irrigation pipes cut through the land like a bad vine, chemicals, fertilizers, pesticide's, pumped in every year again and again, that land has been raped! for what, a tomato? for you to eat? then ill turn back around to the beautiful bushveld and the animals that live there and say "there's the food i choose to eat, there's the land as i wish to see it.
 On the spot iv have people apologize, change there views, go hunting with me the next day, cry.

[Tsalagi]

Many people have become so physically, mentally, and spiritually removed from Nature, they fail to see Her as She is. They live in cities where Nature, if She even exists there, is a tree struggling to survive on a streetside. They get their ideas about Nature from Disney.

They don't see the Raven who plucks the young, struggling nestlings of other birds from the nest and eats them alive. This, too, is Nature, and this, too, has the dark beauty of the Hunter.

They don't see the Coyote pack that darts in to eat the just-born young of antelope. This, too, is Nature, and this, too, is part of the Cycle where life feeds on life and none escape this Cycle.

They don't see the Mountain Lion that tears out the throat of the deer, for he, too, must eat. This, too, is Nature, and the wail of the Mountain Lion is the song by which Nature's will is sung.

They don't see the Wolf pack that surrounds the elk too slow to keep up with the herd. For this, too, is Nature and the beauty of that which it is not for us to understand, but to accept.

This is how I look at hunting:

On Eating and Drinking
 Kahlil Gibran

Would that you could live on the fragrance of the earth, and like an air plant be sustained by the light.
But since you must kill to eat, and rob the newly born of its mother's milk to quench your thirst, let it then be an act of worship.
And let your board stand an altar on which the pure and the innocent of forest and plain are sacrificed for that which is purer and still more innocent in man.


When you kill a beast say to him in your heart,
"By the same power that slays you, I too am slain; and I too shall be consumed.
For the law that delivered you into my hand shall deliver me into a mightier hand.
Your blood and my blood is naught but the sap that feeds the tree of heaven."


And when you crush an apple with your teeth, say to it in your heart,
"Your seeds shall live in my body,
And the buds of your tomorrow shall blossom in my heart,
And your fragrance shall be my breath,
And together we shall rejoice through all the seasons."


And in the autumn, when you gather the grapes of your vineyards for the winepress, say in your heart,
"I too am a vineyard, and my fruit shall be gathered for the winepress,
And like new wine I shall be kept in eternal vessels."
And in winter, when you draw the wine, let there be in your heart a song for each cup;
And let there be in the song a remembrance for the autumn days, and for the vineyard, and for the winepress.

[straitera]

Why doesn't a wolf use tree stands, lures, bows, etc?
Because he has no thumbs.

Why do wolves systematically hunt in packs, kill young animals, & strickly adhere to social heirarchy? Bowhunters don't.

Psychosis is inability to make a rational decision. It results in the grey area of uncertainty which allows the absurdity of Poitical Correctness. Choose either right or wrong. Either Man has Dominion over animals, fish, birds, & every living thing (plants are living things), or not. If not, don't eat them.

[Tsalagi]

I don't believe we have "dominion" over anything. By that argument, E. Coli 0157;H7, certain cancers, certain viruses, tectonic plates, volcanoes, and the weather have dominion over us since they can pretty much kill us with impunity.

I believe we're part of Nature. The "dominion" argument doesn't sway many antis. In fact, it tends to actually bolster their arguments. Because if we have dominion, they say, then we have a responsibility to care for them and a moral obligation to not kill them. It isn't Political Correctness that people don't believe in dominionism; it's a differing belief system. Political Correctness might even be said to be never saying we kill animals and using other words like "harvesting" instead.

[Stone Knife]

Our use of such advantages does not even bring us close to other predators, with their senses and the fact they hunt 24-7 with no limitations set by man.

[Thumper Dunker]

Dogs and wolfs do use cover scents. Thats why they will roll in a dead animal or a cow pie. And hunters do not play with their pray before killing it like dogs,wolfs and coyotes . Cats do the same stuff.By cats Thats the big ones also. Life is crule.I think its best not to argue with them . Wonder what died for her lipstick?.

[straitera]

Tsal;

With due respect, arguments against Man's top of the foodchain are simply attempts to promote alternatives to reality. Are we legitimate in our right to eat living things? Yes/no? If not what is your alternative? Muddying the water only confuses anyone without a belief system. Call it whatever you like.

[FerretWYO]

Originally posted by Ray Hammond:
You've fallen into a trap laid by a featherweight thinker.

A hawk uses the tools it has- sits in a tree and pounced on stuff-they don't run down and hamstring things, then eat them alive.

A bear digs gophers up.

An alligator lies just under the water, grabs stuff by the leg and drowns it.

Your friend the featherweight- she shops at PathMark. She is just using mercenaries to kill for her.

Ray said it. Any preadator uses the tools that they are provided. We have tools and we use them very well.


Andy you put that very well also. I have done very similar things and aske very similar questions. I to have had people turn around and say ok I see your way is not all wrong. They may not shoose it but seldom do they continue to tell me I am wrong.

[Tsalagi]

Straitera,

 Also, with all due respect, in my belief system, we're not necessarily the "top" of anything; but a part of it. In my beliefs, if I am out hunting and a bear eats me, that's proper and right as I went into Nature as Hunter, and play by those rules. I eat, therefore I hunt, therefore I kill. That's not an alternative to reality; it might be an alternative to the reality that you live in, which is fine. My reality has a different belief and one that my Ancestors lived by.

  The reason we are right to eat living things is because that is how this world works. I'm not naive and I don't believe we can eat without killing, regardless of what form the life we take in incarnated in. It isn't muddying the water. Rather, it's seeing the water for what it is and accepting it as it is without the need to filter it so it looks better.

  I don't believe in dominionism as that everything is a subject to us as if we are monarchs. I believe that life feeds on life and that is the way the world works, regardless of what belief system you hold. I need not even justify eating on a belief system; a digestive tract works well with or without a belief system. The belief system is how we deal with the moral, ethical, and Spiritual repercussions of having killed living beings to eat. That's important and, I agree, without belief systems people can become confused, to say the least. Here, I wholeheartedly agree with you, for I am not arguing against a belief system, I am merely saying there are other belief systems, too.

We are not neccesarily at the top of the food chain now that we know that certain microscopic beings feed on us. One might even say there isn't a food chain, but a food circle with the smallest consuming the biggest which then becomes food for the next and so forth. I think all these things are beautiful and if you must know, evidence of higher powers.

With that, I respect your beliefs and this is a very interesting discussion.

 

[Uncle Buck]

these are all good facts, but the problem is is that facts and logic do not sway these people because they have an emotional fantasy view of nature, where the the life of a deer is somehow nobler than that of a Hereford steer. They believe that animals think and reason just like we do and that it really matters to an animal whether it is killed with a pnuematic stun gun in a slaughter house or takes an arrow through both lungs. One of their favorite arguments is that cows are raised to be food as if they have come to accept their fate while the noble deer "choses" to run free. It is almost useless to even argue with these people. if you really want to turn the tide, teach your kids to hunt and fish. Bring the nieghbor kids along. there are plenty of non hunting adults who arent anti- hunting, they were just never taught about the outdoord by thier parent. take the opportunity to show them how to enjoy all the outdoor life has to offer. Think of it as bowhunting evangelism. We need to reach those who have never held a bow,or experienced the mgic of an arrow hitting "right where tou were looking". An alarming number of outdoorsmen (and women) arent teaching our kds if we dont turn it around know we will soon be just a handfull that will be easy to get rid of. Already in my state we are seeing the instances of the state and local government hiring professional wildlife control experts(hired guns) to "handle" deer populations in parks and developments. I will shut up now and go take my blood pressure medicine

[James Wrenn]

I would tell her I like eating them and killing them is the easest way to catch them.  :D  I don't waste time taking to people that think an animal is a person or something myself.I could care less what there ideas of the world are.Mine are what I live by and the only ones that will ever count in my eyes anyway.  

[Jeff Strubberg]

Originally posted by Justin Black:
I was talking to an anti-hunting friend yesterday (yes we can coexist)and the conversion got around to hunting, ethics and whats fair and so on. We usually try to avoid such topics (hunting in general) as we never can agree on such things. But this time it just came up and I must admit she said some things that really got me a thinkin.
I started huntin big game 10 years ago and what I do and how I do it has changed a great deal in that time. This ain't a confessional so I won't go into detail, but let me just say that I have done some things in the field that make me feel  pretty pathetic. I mention this to point out that I like to think I have realised my wrongs and done my best to mend my ways. I felt I had become an ethical hunter. But after talking to my friend I am not so sure.
One of her first questions was why do I hunt? I told her because man is a predator no different than a Wolf, Bear, Cougar etc. And this is where she stumped me. "Does a Wolf use a tree stand? Or artificial scents and calls? And what about binoculars and camouflage?"
Hmmmmm. Well I honestly couldn't think of a single thing to say to that. And I still can't. And you know, perhaps she has a point. What do you folks think?

I would tell your friend that animals use whatever they can, and to stop anthropomorphizing.

Wild animals don't make ethical decisions.  We make ethical decisions because we have the ability to look beyond ourselves.  Comparing the decision making of a human to that of a wolf is silly.

[Traditional-Archer]

What’s the difference between a vegetarian and a meet eater? Three days without food.
  :eek:            

[NDTerminator]

When it comes to anti hunters or animal rights loons, I don't even bother defending my hunting or trying to explain why hunting is as natural as eating & sleeping to me. Even if they got it or were open minded enough to try to understand, they won't accept it anyway...