My arrow is too stiff and your arrow is too weak!!

[xtrema312]

Ok let's have it out!!!!!!!!!!     Now what?  I think I will go shoot.   :D  

I am really not trying to start a big debate, but I am curious if you have found that arrow overhang is a factor in how the arrow responds to it's calculated dynamic spine, and if you also find a big difference in what is the right spine shaft based on which end of the  FOC range you are;  Have you found you need a stiffer shaft for lower FOC and a weaker spine or at least weaker dynamic spine for EFOC?

[NDTerminator]

I recently did some testing with various sized alum shafts I had laying around, using Stu's Calculator to adjust point weight & length for spine correct spine.

Now I'm just fiddling around and only care how they shot out of my bows & with my form, but I found that despite the fact they were well within the calculated dynamic spine envelope, the stiffer arrows that required more than an inch of length beyond my 28.5" draw didn't shoot quite as well as those that came out at 29.5".  The further beyond that inch, the less well they flew...

For what it's worth...

[Bowmania]

For now I am shooting bullet holes in paper. My bare shaft fly so straight I can't see them when they are black and everything in the back ground is white. They are in the group sticking in dead straight. I can drop point and shoot stiff and add point weight and shoot weak. My BH's shoot great. I am at 9.5 gpp and 16% FOC. My fletched arrows shoot with zero wobble. My arrows hit harder at this GPP than at any other time this year. I thought all was well. However, they are way too stiff.

They're not to stiff, they're perfect.  Stop playing and shoot what you have set up.  

Bowmania

[George D. Stout]

Carbon reacts differently than aluminum or wood when it is cut, or even left longer.  The rigidity per inch, or whatever length, is stiffer, and can't be judged the same when altering shaft length.  And I'm convinced that stiffness ratio versus length can vary from shaft to shaft.  There is a lot more that is not understood about carbon as an arrow shaft than is understood.  And so far most information is derived from hip-shooting, or so it seems.

[Orion]

I think a lot of your observations are right on.  Can get pretty complicated if we let it.  We may be in danger of going overboard on this tuning stuff though.  Most bows will handle a fairly wide range of spines.  Maybe all won't bare shaft perfectly, but a good share of them will shoot like darts when fletched.  

As you've learned by improving/perfecting your form, it takes extremely good form to detect and/or not create small or even modest tuning results/differences.  Most folks don't shoot well enough to do it to the nth degree.  Luckily, many bow/arrow combination are quite forgiving and yield excellent fletched arrow flight.  
 
Discussions like yours and others on the tuning process certainly increase our understanding of bow/arrow dynamics.  And tinkering is fun as well as educational.  

[Doc Nock]

Just like a good receipe, you only change ONE ingredient at a time till you find that magic you like best!

[Ragnarok Forge]

Sounds to me like you have the set up you like and it is flying perfectly.  Perfect arrow flights trumps almost everything else when it comes to penetration.  Everyone I have spoken with and all the research lists it right up at or near the top of importance in penetration.

If it was me and I was happy with my arrow weight and foc, I would leave those perfect flight arrows alone and focus on having fun shooting.

Great question by the way on the whole how much past the shelf sticking out impacts arrow flight.  I will be interested to hear others opinions on that.

[pdk25]

Agree with the above.

[pitbull]

Perfect flight = penetration which is the most important factor for me. All my bows are 43# at my 26" draw. I shoot 2 different arrow combo's depending on wether I am shooting target or hunting. Both fly identical out to 25 yards, but my heavier hunting arrows fall off quickly after that and the lighter arrows add about 10 more yards. I shoot instinctive so the arrow length does not matter to me because I don't use the point as a reference. I shoot GT 3555 28" with a 100 gr. insert and a 125 gr. head, 480 gr. total weight for hunting.
 The other combo is a GT 3555 30.5" with standard insert and a 150 gr. head 440 gr. total weight. All bows are cut to center.
  It just takes a little tinkering to find what works but that is half the fun.
The shorter arrows fit better in my hunting quiver also. Good luck on finding the right combo it is worth it!

[ishoot4thrills]

I have reached the conclusion that, when buying arrows or making arrows, it's much easier to make an arrow that is too weak fly correctly than it is to make an arrow that is too stiff fly correctly. Mainly because it's much easier to add material to the strike plate to get a weak arrow to act stiffer. Whereas, an arrow that is too stiff, requires much more changing/experimenting with tip weights and/or the removal of strike plate material, possibly. The exception would be if you want an EFOC arrow then you might lean toward a slightly stiffer arrow and pile on the tip weight. Then, if you go overboard on the tip weight, you can always make up for it by adding more material to your side/strike plate.

The main thing I'm trying to stress here is, when tuning your trad bow/arrow combination, don't forget that you can make a big difference by altering the strike plate area to aid in achieving the ideal results you desire for superb arrow flight.

[Rob DiStefano]

i ain't touchin' this thread with a ten foot pole.         :cool:

[Richie Nell]

Rob,
Does that pole have normal FOC or Ultra-EFOC?

[xtrema312]

I have become experts at the double bounce tune.  Bounce it off the riser then the shelf edge.  If you do it very constantly you can tune a perfect arrow.  

I am actually too stiff on my arrows, but just real consistent with my shooting since I started working with new shafts for my new draw length.  I have been  over drawings a little again lately by using arm and not all back.  This causes me to pull the arrow away from my face on release causing a weak bare shaft.  I figured out I was doing it last night shooting in the barn.  I did a pile of shooting today outside.  I upped point weight one size on one bow and dialed that one right in.  The other two took a little more weight.  I am more than ever an advocate of cutting 1" longer than you want them to be and shooting them forever that way.  Just change the point weight as your form changes.  Someday I will figure it all out and cut my arrows another 1/4".  

I think George is right on about carbon arrows.

[xtrema312]

quote:Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
i ain't touchin' this thread with a ten foot pole.    

[Robert Honaker]

Shoot aluminum and all your carbon headaches go away.

Well, mine did anyway.

[Rooselk]

Originally posted by Robert Honaker:
Shoot aluminum and all your carbon headaches go away.

Well, mine did anyway.

Amen.

[Bill Carlsen]

First off, I think you are right about deciding on what kind of FOC you want before you even begin. My journey with carbons spanned several years before I got what I wanted and that had to do more with companies changing their specs than anything. I decided to stay with Easton/Beman shafts since they make a good shaft and they keep them the same from year to year.

I think it is important to shoot one bow and tune your arrow to that bow. Find all the sweet spots on the bow...brace height, nocking points, silencers, string type and stand count, etc. Then you can play with any shafts you want until you find an arrow tha works for you. The goal should be to be able to bare shaft it at a fair distance so you know you are getting perfect flight. I use an elevated rest and plunger on my bow (DAS) and with that I can really fine tune almost any arrow that is close and be able to bare shaft it out to at least 35 yards and it will shoot straight.

I am a guy who has found that EFOC works for him. When I was working towards the goal of that perfect bare shaft I came up with an arrow that was 29" (I draw 28") with 225 grains up front. I didn't weigh anythig until the arrow was shooting the way I needed it to. As a result, for my 60# DAS I have a 29" Beman 340, with a 225 grain point and a finished weight of 600 grains.

In summary I guess I am saying that you need to decided on the FOC thing and  then find an arrow that shoots that FOC straight down the tube, so to speak. Get the bow set up first and then tune the arrow to the bow, not the other way around. I would also forget about achieving a predetermined arrow weight and make the goal to get a perfect flying shaft then see what it weighs....not the other way around. For me, straight flying arrows trump weight. A lighter arrow flying perfectly with some FOC will outperform a heavier arrow that is shooting less than perfectly regardless of where you get the extra weight. My wife shoots a bow 15# lighter than mine and an arrow that is 100 grains lighter than mine. She has a draw 2" shorter and she shoots her arrows thru any animal she has tagged....so fare that is deer and bear....and she shoots four blade heads which most on here would say she shouldn't do. But her arrows shoot perfectly.

[xtrema312]

Aluminum arrows do sound good some days as to AD's.  Two bows down and one to go.  Stacked on 25 gr. on one and 50 on the other to get within a few pounds of spine.  Also one nock adjustment and tying on a second nock point for one bow.  

Bill is right one about sticking to one bow.  Tuning three bows at one time is a sure way to make yourself crazy, but when you form changes and all your arrows are too short, it is hard to resist trying to get everything up and shooting again.  

A stick on elevated rest is waiting in the wings.  It sure would make life easier by eliminating all the shelf contact issues, but I can't resist wanting to shoot off the shelf.  I just love to suffer.