FOC for dual use target/hunting arrows

[FrankM]

I have some old 2018/370 Gamegetter II arrows. I measured them for FOC. I want to use these arrows for target shooting and then take them hunting with my 50# bow. Will the difference in FOC between field points and broadheads throw off my training? Should I buy heavier broadheads to compensate?

oTotal weight =  477.44
oFOC with 100gr. field points: 10.42%
oFOC with 100gr. broadheads: 7.92% (longer arrow with broadheads by 1 inch)

[Don Stokes]

No. It's been done for generations.

[FrankM]

Thanks. I also made a mistake with my calc.

Dang new guys.  

[Terry Green]

My opinion is that 'FOC with 100gr. broadheads: 7.92%' is too low of a percentage for broadheads.

Need at least 12% for stable broadhead flight IMO.

15 to 18 is even better for the conditions/concerns we encounter in the field.  I've been shooting 18% for a long time, and that has served me well.

You must also consider the spine...that's just as important.  Any arrow that is to stiff or too weak will magnify problems and produce wildly flying arrows.  So, if you do change your broadhead to 150 grains, you'd be better off getting consistent flight WITH broadheads in most conditions....but you may require a stiffer spine.  Simply putting on a heavier Bhead will not assure good flight, you must also consider the spine.

I know guys that get great arrow flight from 75 grain broadheads with 15% FOC....yes, they are shooting light arrows....but they got the spine nailed down.

[Ragnarok Forge]

I am shooting 29.5 inch 584 grain 600 spine arrows out of my 55lb longbow.  I am using 4-4 inch fletch and I am getting 28% foc.  The arrows will bare shaft to fletch tune perfectly with 200 - 250 - 30 grain points.  Pushing the Foc that far forward makes the arrows simple to tune.  

I have 375 grains up front with broadhead foot and insert.  The fly perfect. I use them for both target and hunting arrows.  I use the same arrows all year long so when it comes to hunting, I put on my broadheads, confirm my tune is good and go hunting.  I never have to refigure trajectory for hunting weight arrows.  

Just a note, I only own one bow and just ordered an identical bow in different woods from the same bowyer as a back up.  I like to keep things uniform.  Not thinking or worrying about what I have changed that might make me miss my target or animal.

[Earthdog]

I shot 7% for everything for over 35 years and never had any problems with broadhead flight.

Two years ago I started to use point loaded arrows for both hunting and 3D,the only thing that was effected was my point on distance for 3D,,,,"hunting" nothing changed "including my over all penetration on animals.

As far as I'm concerned "the whole EFOC thing is a load of bolloks,and the only reason I stay with my current set up is I havn't got around to buying some new Easton Legacys and I have too much money in these EFOC carbons to just throw them away.

7% worked for YEARS,,,,but I guess some people made both money and reputation by pushing EFOC,and everybody just got sucked in.

[Terry Green]

Originally posted by Earthdog:
I shot 7% for everything for over 35 years and never had any problems with broadhead flight.

 

I'd like to learn more about your arrow.  

How long was it?

Fletching specs?

What make of Bhead?

Thanks.

Oh.....you on the North or South Island?

[Earthdog]

Terry,
Currently I'm shooting mainly Carbon express 150's at 28.5 with 100g inserts behind 125g old Bear Razorheads and 4 inch feathers.

I also shoot Goldtip 3355's,same point loading and .5 longer,but with 2" Razor feathers.

Those were ment to be all round arrows but due to the long distance flight characteristic's I'm now shooting Easton Redlines with standard iserts,Razor feathers and 100g points for Field archery,,these arrows give me better speed,and no sudden drop off at the longer targets from 65-80 yards.

Because I shoot 3D,Field archery,indoors and I hunt,,,I'm now returning to shooting 2016 alloys for everything, because they did always work for everything,they did always fly well,did blow clean through most everything I shot with the Bear broadheads I've been shooting from day one.
Just resently I realised that before carbon shafts,single bevel broadheads and EFOC,,,I never had two sets of arrows,and I never even had to think about bareshafting,point loading,or consider anything more than just shooting well and using sharp broadheads.
20 years ago I measured the wheight forward of the 2016's I was shooting at the time because I'd read that 7% was the best all round balance,it was just a point of interest at that time,but those arrows did come very close so I was happy with that an didn't think anymore of it until just resently when everybody started getting obsessed with all this other stuff.
Most of my comments about EFOC I still belive is true,and I also belive that traditional archers in general are being taking for a ride by people that are more intersted in money than "Traditional archery".
I also feel that if we were being true to the spirit of traditional archery,we would be seeking the simplist way of achieving our aims,we would be seeking self reliance and DIY  skills, not getting dragged into more an more complex ways of achieving what people like Fred Bear,Ben Pearson,Howard Hill and others had well sorted long before most of us came along.
When I started shooting,the compound hadn't arrived,most eveybody shot parrallel shafts with 125g field points to match their 125g broadheads,everybody shot Easton alloy arrows for field archery or Cedar for hunting,nobody point loaded their arrows,everybody knew how to sharpen a broadhead,nobody bare shafted their arrows to find the right tune,nobody shot single bevels because they were considered cheap an nasty.
Today I yern for those days and feel sad for what has become tradititional archery today,because it's not what it was,in fact from my point of view it's become much the same mindset as what the compound bought us.

Sorry if any of this insults anybody,because that wasn't my intension,it's just how I've seen things turning over a long period of time and I just don't see the need when what we had was so good and had worked for so long.

Terry thanks for the email.
Be well,
ED.

[Ragnarok Forge]

No insults taken here. Everyone pursues their own path to archery enlightenment and equipment is chosen to fill each persons needs.  DR Ashby is the guy who pushed FOC and EFOC and hasn't made a penny on it, though others are now selling products for it and making money from products based on his work.

I agree that a very good shot who takes close ethical shots with low FOC arrows will kill 95% or more of all the animals they shoot at on the  first shot.  A good tracker and all around hunter will find 95% of that last 5% and finish them off.  The problem is that lots of not so good hunters most of which are incompetent trackers take shots past their effective ranges and lots of animals are lost.  That last part is what is unnacceptable to me.  

For that reason I choose to hunt hard and practice tracking skills while shooting at close ranges with EFOC arrows.  I am optimizing my chances of killing every animal I shoot at.  I have really enjoyed the process and path to finding the right arrows for me.  That process has brought me both enjoyment and frustration and in the end enlightenment.  I shoot the same arrows for hunting as I do for target shoots and 3D.  

To each their own.  No reason for any of the techie guys methods or ways to impact your feelings about our sport.  We techie guys are a  bunch of driven crazies who just like to fiddle and know what different things make our arrows work.  I for one shoot regularly and love the sight of an arrow arching into a long range target.  It is beatiful and simple at the same time.  There is nothing quite the same as the feeling of a perfect shot with a clean release and seeing the arrow hit right where you were looking.

Anyway's just my 2 cents on a different path to finding my version of archers simplicity.

[Crash]

I agree with both of you.  Can I do that?   :D   Archery can be as simple or complex as the archer wants it to be, there is room for all of us.  The tests that Dr. Ashby has performed are for maximum penetration on large, thick skinned and heavy boned animals.  Most of us hunt deer which are small, light skinned and small boned.  If a certain set-up gives you confidence, then it will be the best and you will perform well with it even if it doesn't match what is currently being touted as the best.  It really doesn't take a lot to put a sharp broadhead far enough into a deer to kill it cleanly.

[lpcjon2]

So the ? is did frank get an answer to his ?.

[FrankM]

Yes, all of this is very enlightening. I learn a lot just by watching you guys chat. When I said this, I used one method of calculating FOC:
oFOC with 100gr. field points: 10.42%
oFOC with 100gr. broadheads: 7.92% (longer arrow with broadheads by 1 inch)

There is another method that uses the shaft length. Both are considered valid by Ashby. See I'm learning! The point is, I tried the other method and discovered that my field points "must be" heavier than my broadheads. I don't have a scale but they look like 125 gr. So, in order to match it up, I need 125 gr. broadheads for these arrows. So, I did learn something.  

[Bowmania]

Ashby in his own article gets 1/3 more penetration on "young adult male Asian water buffalo" with a 40 at 27 inch longbow and a two blade Grizzly than a 60 at 27 compound and a Rage HB (don't know if you can call that head a broadhead) when hitting a rib.  Soooooo, why on earth would we have to use a 650 gr arrow when shooting 50-60 lbs to kill a whitetail?  An elk for that matter.

Bowmania

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Originally posted by Bowmania:
Soooooo, why on earth would we have to use a 650 gr arrow when shooting 50-60 lbs to kill a whitetail?  An elk for that matter.

Bowmania

You know, just in case...a water buffalo jumps in front of your deer.   :D

[James Wrenn]

You know, just in case...a water buffalo jumps in front of your deer.  

That is all I needed,more coffee in this already sticky keyboard!