Flemish Over-Twisting?

[mrpenguin]

Hey Everyone,

I am making up some strings and have consistently, lately, had the two bundles twist like ropes at the end of the sting.  This happens after I have twisted up both loop ends and am putting the final twist to brace height in the body of the string.  The first loop I do always turns out beautiful, but the second forms two distinct twining 'ropes' instead of meshing a nice twist of the bundles together.  I am curious what I am doing wrong to cause this.  Here are a couple of notes:

I reviewed previous threads and have been very careful to get a GOOD backtwist as I form the loops.

I make very sure that there is a little tension on the strands, bundles, as I twist so that all the strands pull as evenly as possible.

This has only happened with my recent use B50 Black 1/4# string.  It happened when I twisted up a yellow/black string (tried that twice with the same results) and a black/black string as well.  In the past when using green/yellow, I didn't really have this issue.  Could it be the string (I'm thinking no, but....)

So, am I not putting enough twist or possibly too much twist or not enough tension... ugh... any advice would be appreciated!!

[LBR]

I reviewed previous threads and have been very careful to get a GOOD backtwist as I form the loops.

That might be your problem.  Backtwist isn't applied as you form the loops, it's put in before you start the second loop.

After you build the first loop, there will be twists in both bundles.  Take this out, and count how many twists it takes to get the bundles hanging straight.  Once straight, put that same number back in, but in the opposite direction.  When you form the second loop, it will take this reverse twist (or back twist) back out, and when you finish the second loop the bundles should be hanging straight again (or very close).  The bundles having little to no twist in them before you put that final twist in the "body" of the string is the difference in one nice, smooth string or a string that looks like two ropes twisted up.

[SCATTERSHOT]

Before you twist the second loop, be sure to backtwist the bundles as many times as you think you will twist them to finish the string. Then when you have the second loop twisted, run each bundle through your fingers toward the first loop to even out the twists.


Good luck!

[mrpenguin]

Thanks Gents,

I have some 'practice' strings I can try this out with... btw, can I use a 're-twisted' string?

[LBR]

You can take one loop apart and go from there, but you won't have much of an idea on how many back-twists to apply.

[Jeff Strubberg]

I had the same problem with all my strings.  Once I started combing all the extra twist out of the body of the string before twisting the second loop, the problem went away.  

It's not a big chore, just run your fingers down through the bundles and make sure they are hanging free before you do the second loop.

[Eugene Slagle]

I still from time to time have this issue, kinda like a Dunce moment for me but as the others said when making the loops them selves you don't have to worry about the back twisting till you prepare to make the second loop & all you have to do is make sure that the strands are flat & straight then give it equal back twist that you will untwist when you make the second loop.

[frank bullitt]

Erik, don't be afraid to take it apart and start over. Saves on material.

Straighten out the strands and re-wax the ends and have at it! Like said, remember to put the reverse twists in, only before starting the second loop.

Folks like myself, who build strings almost everyday, becomes repetive. Those who build only a few each year, sometimes forget the steps,in the process. You'll get it, just be patient, and have fun!

[COOCH]

mrpenguin what part of CT are you in.I could give you a lesson easier than I can explain it on a keyboard (my comp skill are horrible & we won't even get into spelling and grammer   )Making a string is really very simple.And yes you can undue your mistakes and start over I messed up a few before I got it.WAX is your friend.

[mrpenguin]

Hi Cooch,

I'm not far away at in Manchester.  I am kinda busy until mid-May, but would love to get together.  Let's stay in touch.

Thanks so much!

[Ground Hunter]

Does it really hurt the string to be looking like two ropes twisted up? Or is it just a visual thing??  Just wondered???  H

[Jeff Strubberg]

It's a visual clue that the loops aren't locked in like they should be.

BTW,I have never, ever added reverse twist to a string before working the second loop.  If I just remove the twist from the body of the string, then proceed with the second loop, the strings come out just fine.  Obviously LBR has made a hundred times as many strings as I have, but I've been making them for my small stable and a few friends for 20 years now.  I have to ask why reverse twisting is necessary?

[LBR]

If your strings come out right without reverse twist, no reason to add it--but I'd love to see you make a string sometime.

Before I learned of it, I had some that came out fine and some that didn't--no idea to this day why that happened.  Putting a reverse twist in insures that, when I finish the second loop, the bundles will be hanging straight, or real close, which insures they will go together properly.  Shoot, I've had a few times where even with reverse twist the string came out less round than I wanted--obviously something I did wrong, but no idea just what.

I  couldn't say for sure that there's a big problem to be had with strings that aren't round--Lord knows my first attempts were anything but most of the time--but I think they are louder, probably wear faster, and sure don't look nearly as good.

[frank bullitt]

Jeff, are you doing 2 bundle or 3? With 3 you can usually get away without reverse twists.

Does it matter, I don't think so. It is more asthetics than anything. I know of folks who will build without, and burnish it with a piece of leather, before seving. I think it is more of an issue, to not have too many twists in the body of the string, when finished!

Also, don't forget that the size or number of strands, can determine how many twists are needed in the reverse. If you only say do 14 strand strings and then go to a say 8 strand, ratio changes!

I can actually put the serving on a string, before building, and not put the reverse in and still have a rounded area in the serving. Equipment change!