Carbon Spine arrow help

[goldflinger]

Ok guys, I need some Carbon arrow recomendations. I think I would like to go with the Beman ICS Bowhunters. I will be shooting them out of a longbow. My draw length is 28 1/2 and the arrows I am currently shooting are 2016's at 29 3/4". The bow weight is 52 lbs. at a 28 3/4" draw. Do I need 400's or 500's and at what length do you suggest I have them cut. I do not have a dremmel or any way to cut them myself, so I kinda need to order them correctly from the start. Appreciate suggestions if I should have weight added to the front! Thanks in advance for your suggestions!!

[arky714]

I would go with the 400's the 500's could end up too light...try 30" then add weight until bare and feathered shafts fly together....a little bit harder than it sounds just order 2 or 3 extra shafts ...

[Austin]

400's are very forgiving, I use 30.5" ics camohunters and they shoot well in anything from my wife's 35# bow up to my 60 lb 'curve. Mostly use them with 125-135gr. tips but they still fly nice with 170g out of my recurves (54# and 60#). The camo wrap makes 'em near indestructible!

[Austin]

btw, the bare 400 shafts flew perfectly out of my 54# bow. i tried a 500 and it was a mite bit floppy.

[Shawn Leonard]

Sorry, but go with the 500s. I would cut them to 29.5"s and add a 50 grain brass insert and 125 grain head. The 400s will be too stiff. I shot the 400s out of my 60-62# high performance recurves that I drew to 28.5"s and cut them to 29.5 and needed 225 grains up front for perfect flight.  Shawn

[Shawn Leonard]

Really should have more info. if it is a D-stlye longbow you will need even more up front. If hard R/D design than my first advise would be good. Shawn

[xtrema312]

I think you are on the line and a lot depends on the center cut of your bow.  400's will work, but arrow length, point weight, and arrow weight may not be what you want.  500's could be a little light weight.  I have found that about a 29" draw and bows in the low 50's fall on a line between a 500 being a little light, and 400's being a little heavy for medium game and targets.  That is with Beman bow hunters.  Other shaft like CE's have more shaft weight.  

I used to draw about the same as you.  I have worked on form and now draw about 1" more than that.  With draw weights between 50 and 55 I have always been able to find a combo with a 400, but I have also been able to work with 500's with bows cut out form center, closer to 50#, and when my arrow was shorter.

The Beman bow hunter is a great shaft for the price.  They are consistent for me and have no stiff side I can find.  However, you would be wise not to just cut them and set them up.  Everyone is different and every bow is different.  I have had two bows the same weight, and model shoot a different arrow set-up.  I have to tune an arrows a little different with a glove vs. a tab.  Different silencers have made huge differences in arrow selection for me.

Track down Stu's spine calculator.  Then get one of those harbor freight cut off saws, some 100 gr. inserts, standard inserts, 50 gr. inserts, and some test points from 100, 125, 145, 175, 200, and 250.  I know that sounds like a lot, but it is not and you will use it all if you shoot carbons long and use different bows.  You can pay for it all and then some with a dozen arrows that don't work.  

Start with the calculator and go about 10# light on spine with an arrow 1" longer than you want and a point weight in the middle of a reasonable range for your bow and the arrow weight you want.  Then change stuff and shot fletch and bare shafts until you get a great flyer.  If you find you are right between two point weights and you are a little too stiff with one and a little too weak with the other, go with the heavier point and  cut 1/4" at a time until you get it just right.  Only cut when you are sure.  Most times now I find I can nail something very easily if I do this.  I no longer need to have arrows 2 or 3" longer than needed.  With 2" past the riser I can dial it in.

I find carbons to be odd shafts.  They shoot great when you get them dialed in.  High FOC overcomes some issues with weak shafts.  I find a lot of extra shaft sticking out also does some things not consistent with standard tuning when you have some extra weight out there.  Even the calculator doesn't work for me all the time with all bows.

[goldflinger]

Thanks for all the responses guys, keep them coming . The bow is a r/d Toelke whip. I currently shoot 125 gr. Fieldtips and all my broadheads, (2 & 4 blade stingers, and w. Woodman's) are 125 gr., so I would like to stick with that weight, since I have over 20 heads. I would not be opposed to weighted inserts, or whatever is available for weight up front. Time to sign off for tonight, but I will check back in the morning!

[Widowbender]

I have a similar setup to that and the 500 shafts worked out better than 400...I am shooting 250 grains up front...

[chopx2]

Goldflinger...listen to xtrema312...tons of sage wisdom there.

I just got my Tolke Whip 2pc today (62"and 59# @ 29"). It is 1# heavier than my Buffalo. Both are Center cut. My arrow is 29 7/8".300 spine Victory VForceHV with 315gr tip 100gr insert. Total weight about 630grs. On my Buffalo I built out the side plate 3/16" and the arrows are still slightly weak. On my Whip they are actually slightly stiff with no sideplate adjustments. Given the bow specs, same shhoter and same tab and arrow you couldn't predict such a big difference.

You have to experiment if you want perfect arrow flight.

[goldflinger]

Assuming CE is Carbon express. If I were to go with those, what size would you recommenend guys?

[xtrema312]

You need to figure out the center cut of the bow with the strike plate material on it.  That is a big factor, but so are a lot of other things.  Without that it is hard to get close, but I will assume the Whip is cut to about center and your draw length is what you listed for the weight of your bow, you have small silencers, and a reasonable size FF sting. This is just for comparison so you can see how things could go.

A 500 Beman could work out with the 125 head and a 100 insert.  Brace and building out the side plate could help out in that area if it is too weak and you run out of cutting room.  The problem is that with a 100 gr. insert you will just make about 9.3 gpp based on Stu's numbers, and I find the Beman to run less weight than the calculator says for generic carbon 500 and 400.  I would say you would be under 9 gpp a little.  That arrow is ok for a lot of stuff, but some like more weight.  

The Beman 400 could work fine with 100 gr. insert and 125 head.  You should start out long like 32” and start cutting as you verify bare shafting.  I would still use other points to check the tune.  Then cut a little once you are sure.  You may hit it at about 30-31” if all goes by the spine calculator.  If you bow is out from center a ways you will have a long arrow or could end up with a heavier point.  The 100 gr. insert and 125 head will get you an arrow around 10 gpp.

The CE’s will be stiffer.  The 250’s I just got are stiffer than the Beman by at least 5# for me.  I have an Beman 400 arrow at 30 ¼” with standard insert and 175 head.  I wanted more weight, but can’t cut more to stiffen to add weight.  I went with the CE 250 to get shaft weight with the idea of using standard inserts and the same head.  I started with a 31” arrow knowing I would be close and could add some insert weight if needed.  That nailed it right on.  The ¾” extra length just offset the stiffness difference of the shaft.

For you I think the CE 250 would be too stiff with a limit of a 125 point.  Maybe you can get it with a real long arrow.  The CE 150 from what I can see is very close to the Beman 400, but I have not worked with them. With the CE150 you will be back to what I noted above with draw length and arrow spine.  You could get a weak arrow at your length of draw and need to build out if you want to hold on to the arrow weight.  The nice thing with the CE 150 is you will pick up about another 1 gpp so weight is not an issue if you need to drop to a 50 gr. or standard insert.  You will start to drop back to the 9 gpp range, but you can stiffen the CE 150 up more that way than the Beman 500 without going way down in weight and close to the 8 gpp range which could happen with the Beman if you go light on the insert.  You need to make sure you don’t get all the way down to minimum length and then realize you need to drop insert weight as that could required a little more arrow length to compensate for part of that weight loss.  

All this is just guessing based on only some of the variables, but I hope you can see where I am going with this.

When I first started working with carbons I wanted to shoot a 125 gr. head because I had them and there are so many easy to find options for that head weight.  I had some success, but found it really limited me a lot.  I got it done, but it took a lot more playing around and testing.  Arrow length and weight was not always ideal.  I have now found that the 145 and 175 heads just seem to be the right combo with the shaft size and bows I shoot.  Now that I have a good number of arrows cut, but continue to trade, buy, and sell bows,  I find the 125 head just never seems to work out right for me in many bows.  I need to be flexable on the points.

[goldflinger]

Hey Xtrema312, I really appreciate you taking the time for the in depth explanation. I guess the last conclusion you draw is what I was kinda figuring on. Perhaps I'll just stick with the aluminums. Much thanks!!

[metsastaja]

Les all good advise. You might want to download stu millers dynamic spine calculator and start playing the numbers yourself. It works with microsoft excel or the spread sheet program from openoffice.org.

you can download it here   http://heilakka.com/stumiller/  

The program has allowed me to do a lot of tweaking
before cutting shafts.

I shoot both recurve and longbows any where from 45# to 60# at 28". My problem has been my 30" draw.  I have found the calculator to work very well in making selections.  I do shoot Carbon Express Heritage and love them.  

Leslie Heilakka

[goldflinger]

Thanks, I'll play around with it. I am now leaning on trying some Gold Tip Traditional XT hunters. Will most likely go with 5575 and plan on adding weight instead of 3555 that I would have to cut. I need more patience with this stuff!! I'm working on it. funny how you accumulate so much archery junk, I'm going to need to build a building to store it. I now see saws, left wing fletching jigs, many brass weights, new heavier field tips and broadheads in my future!!  HA HA, does it ever end.

[Friend]

It is just part of the fun.