Archery instructor Certification Question

[moebow]

I am thinking about an idea that has been festering in my mind for quite a while. This will be long so if you are looking for reading material get your coffee and popcorn and read on.

There is much discussion about and help given in this and the "Shooter's Forum" about shooting problems and techniques; questions about finding a coach/instructor, equipment tuning, etc.  Currently the only game in town is the certification program offered by USA Archery (Formerly known as NAA).  That certification program used to be labeled as level 1,2,3 and so on. It is now Basic & intermediate instructor; Community, Regional and Elite coach.  These changes are due to the fact that the USA Archery organization is the national governing body for archery and the USA Archery head coach KiSik Lee was hired specifically to get the USA back on the podium in international events and the Olympics so their total concentration at this time is target.  By the way, they have been very successful in this -- setting many new national and world records recently.  So the system does really work!

There are many WELL respected traditional instructors out there, Ferguson, Jenkins, Asbell, Welch come to mind and there are MANY others.  I have been to many of their classes but not all.  They all have their own techniques and styles and they are all good!  Frankly though, there is little standardization between them and their credentials are that they are very successful hunters, exhibition shooters and multi-level champions not necessarily trained instructors (I don't really know if they have actual instructor training though that's not a show stopper).  That is in NO WAY meant to criticize what they do or how good they are!! They are too few!  I feel that we need many more instructors out there that are trained so new comers to the sport don't have the same learning curve (trial and error, mostly error) that we had.  I would add too that it DOES NOT TAKE A tournament champion to make a good instructor.  In fact, there are many good instructors that have never won anything.  Many times good instructors are those that have struggled with their shooting since they are familiar with the challenge that most of us face.  Those that can win tournaments are really good but that in-born talent sometimes doesn't give them the perspective of a student struggling with a concept.

I also know and accept that there are many here in the traditional community that see target style archery as some other game and to an extent, it is.  I will say though that the BEST (Biomechanically Efficient Shooting Technique) system IS a very good form system that teaches REALLY good and efficient use of the upper body for the archery shot.  (Please get over the image of the target archer standing stiffly on the line) I'm talking about how the hands, arms and shoulders are used to get absolute consistency regardless of your stance or positioning.

I also know from first hand experience that the training given in USA Archery's training courses IS VERY target oriented.  BUT, the form taught is VERY good!  As I said, I have been through this training to get the form knowledge but then I modify it to an extent to make it practical for our style of shooting.  I even say on my card that I "specialize in traditional archery.

Folks (those that are still with me after going the long way around the barn), here are my questions:

1.  How many of you out there have some kind of instructor/coach credential (NASP, USA Archery, other)?

2.  How many of you know anyone that is, in your opinion, someone that shows great potential to rise to the heights but don't know what to do for or with them?

3A.  If there was a certification program out there somewhere that wasn't JUST Olympic style target archery but one that gave you the tools to actually help new or existing shooters to shoot better, would you consider taking the training?

3B.  Would you take the training if you thought it would help you shoot better?

4.  If USA Archery were to offer a parallel coach's certification that gave you the form and equipment knowledge to feel comfortable helping any archer not just Olympic wannabes (but including them), would you be interested?

I am going to "suck it up" and take the Regional Coach's course later this year and frankly "suffer" through the competition/target part of it just to increase my knowledge/competence as a coach.  But all the time in the class I will be thinking about how this all applies to our part of the sport and how I can modify what I learn to a more free flowing traditional style.

In this class, I really want to try to present to the "powers that be" a proposal that will perhaps create that parallel coaching track I mentioned earlier.  One of the TOP USA Archery Elite coaches I talked to recently said that they were relying on instructors and coaches in the field to refer potential archers to them for further training.  Not only would this idea put more good instructors out there for us but would expand the number of eyes to identify the next Gold Medal candidates for the USA.  I see this as a win win situation.

Thank you for staying with this (if you did) and I would appreciate any thoughts or comments you may have; either here or by PM.

Arne

PS.  I AM asking all this for ME, NOT USA Archery or anyone else!!!!!!

[Owlmagnet]

moebow, I think you are on to something very important.  To specifically answer your questions: 3A. YES!; 3B. Yes!  Seriously.  I have recently joined an SCA group primarily in recognition of their intense respect for what I think of as "traditional archery", (recurves, longbows, wooden arrows, no sights).  These folks demonstrate every level of experience and ability, from the very proficient and experienced to the brand, spanking, new.  They are hungry for knowledge of all aspects of "medieval" archery, yet other than a serious emphasis on safety, there is little useful training regarding technique.  They are not hard core bowhunters, nor are they Olympic, FITA-type archers--but, like many of us, they are somewhere in between.  My club needs a highly competent instructor far more than they need another competent archer.  Needless to say, I am very interested in your line of thought.  Please keep us informed.

[moebow]

Owl,  Thank you for the response!  I agree with you that a competent instructor will go a long ways in the direction you mention - not to mention the reduction of physical injury by the use of good form in pulling and shooting their medieval bows.  That is exactly my thinking and why I asked the  questions I did.  I know that Arizona has a "plethora" of great and High level coaches but one of them I encountered recently had never even heard of Howard Hill!  I educated him and sent him references to "get educated on HH." I don't see how the history of archery in America can be ignored by these otherwise highly competent coaches.

[Javi]

I've let it all lapse but I still have the certificates somewhere.. once upon a time I was a level 2 NAA and NFAA instructor..

However I've found that it amounted to squat with my students.. Reputation is everything; certificates hanging on a wall are nothing but pretty pieces of paper.

Sorry if that comes across as a little harsh but I've never had a student ask for my certification. Did I learn something in the courses... yes am I glad I took the courses... yes...

[McDave]

I'm a basic level instructor, and will probably take the intermediate level course, when I figure out how to do it (things are a little casual here on the west coast).

I've taken classes from Rick Welch and Rod Jenkins.  Rick has had no formal training from any instructor or coach.  Rod credits his training under Len Cardinale with much of his success.

I would love to take specific training to become a better coach of traditional archery, and would be willing to travel to wherever it was offered.

I agree with your statement that a person with loads of natural talent might find it difficult to relate to all the mistakes we mere mortals make on a regular basis.  Not only new mistakes, but old mistakes that we don't realize we're repeating for the second or third time.  On the other hand, something rubs off when you get instructed by an expert.  I noticed it when I took Rick's class, and shot better than I ever had before.  It's pretty common in skiing; when you ski behind an expert, you can ski way over your normal skill level.  However, getting back to archery, the main problem most of us have is identifying our mistake.  If we were able to identify our mistake, we could correct it.  If anyone could teach people to recognize their own mistakes, he or she would be a great instructor.

[GRINCH]

McDave well said some of the best advise Ive been given were by people who simply watched me shoot and notice my mistakes and my good points.

[moebow]

McDave, I FULLY agree about the "experts and champions and their effect on any that can get to them to learn.  I have enjoyed, learned and benefitted from many of them.  There just are too few of them.  My thoughts above are to try to get a more "grass roots" instuctor/coaching effort started.

I also agree that being able to identify mistakes in ourselves or others is of great value.  I suggest though that if we had more folks that really had an image of an ideal archer using BEST form,  it would be a good way to advise folks in a good direction.  Now, it seems that it is just opinions that get tossed out frequently  because "that's how I do it and it works for me."  It seems, often, that advice given is treating the symptoms and not really getting to the cause.

[Bowwild]

I am a NASP BAIT Specialist. There are about 70 such certified people in the world. Typically, each state or Canadian Province or country has 1 or 2 BAIT Specialsts. Altogether in NASP there are 22,300 teachers and trainers certified as "Basic Archery Instructors", Basic Archery Instructor Trainers", or .BAIT Specialists".  This is the only certification NASP recognizes to train its teachers or (in 2011) it's 1,916,000 students.

I've been in archery since the mid-1960s.  I learned like most archers of my era and others in the past 40 years.  I was self-taught with a bit of help watching shooters who posted good scores (that could be different from proper form), and watching videos.  

Like so many others I learned many incorrect and eventually harmful techniques. Typically, advice given about draw hand set, aiming, and follow-through were terribly wrong. Sadly and unfortunate for the growth of archery, the majority of people in my shoes quit archery after they developed shooting problems. Today there are hundreds of thousands of people who love archery but it doesnt love them -- they have shooting difficulties (99% mental due to a focus on results rather than the process)that prevent them from enjoying archery.

Beware of mimicing folks who are currently producing great results (winning scores).  There are countless examples, I will name none, of people who were on top of their game from a results standpoint one moment and lost it the next shot!  

The good news is this can be prevented and corrected. It doesnt take tricks or gimmicks. It requires a simple "mental rewiring" of whats important. (Of course certain basic form and shot execution steps must be perfected.)

I've believed for 10 years that there are not "50 best ways" to shoot a bow.  Advising a person to shoot however works for them (at the moment) is worse than no advice.

By the way, I've found giving such advice about standard form can kill a thread quicker than  bringing up a certain bow made across the pond.

[Friend]

Arnie,

Your genuine interest and continued self sacrificing endeavor to introduce and cultivate competent archers both wonderful and admirable. Far too many are lost and/or never introduced to traditional archery and thus miss out on the extraordinary traditional experience.
Thank you for all you do.

1.   How many of you out there have some kind of instructor/coach credential (NASP, USA Archery, other)?...NASP certified. I am strongly under the impression that this certification is merely a piece of paper, yet still is an archery promotion. My class consisted of merely going thru the 11 steps and the rules of setting up the range and running a class. The instructor himself could not, nor did not have a true interest, nor knowledge nor experience to develop a competent archer. This type of lack of competency is wide spread and easily observed at tournaments I judge as well as students and classes I assist. Parents and conventional archery affiliations have also been major blockers. Any more credentials or improvements must flow from the top down.

2. How many of you know anyone that is, in your opinion, someone that shows great potential to rise to the heights but don't know what to do for or with them? Yes, many, many, many! There are many adult driven blockers out there. I offer to take these hi potential candidates and especially the students having the most trouble for free private intense training sessions. One particular promising student I worked for several hours one Saturday shot a 280 score at the end of the session. The look in hie eyes and expression of amazement have left an indelible on mark on me. The next week the instructors had him shooting his previous form and he stayed at ~250 the rest of the season. The private sessions have been both quite successful and extremely rewarding. Seems odd that the closest and most need-of- help organizations reflect that correct form is quite unnecessary, yet one of the premier national teams is always seeking guidance.


3A. If there was a certification program out there somewhere that wasn't JUST Olympic style target archery but one that gave you the tools to actually help new or existing shooters to shoot better, would you consider taking the training?  Of course, if affordable. Training others and seeing others react to achieving significant improvement is the ultimate gratification and also has served me well in addressing my own form issues.

3B. Would you take the training if you thought it would help you shoot better?
Certainly!! One of the attractive underlying benefits is that you come to ascertain what and why we get the results we got. Much personal improvement has been gained thru instruction and resolving others form issues.

4. If USA Archery were to offer a parallel coach's certification that gave you the form and equipment knowledge to feel comfortable helping any archer not just Olympic wannabes (but including them), would you be interested? Yes!!!  One particular piece of equipment, of which, I have had on lone for quite some time has been a highly productive training.  A Genesis bow with a mounted ‘Safedraw’ and safe release  system. This set-up allows me to have the student focus and isolate all of the steps, including the most difficult to engrain steps of good form and remove aiming from the equation.  Aiming is the one step that the students seem engrossed in, thus placing the other all-important steps in the all but forgotten category, on the back burner. I personally provide little instruction with regards to actually aiming other than remaining relaxed and tilting and minor rotation of the hips. My emphasis on form restarts at hold thru conclusion.


Note: Your training aid video using the Genesis has been quite helpful in building students confidence in what they are being instructed to do. Great job! Having some young students going thru this quite similar format may possibly reach the kids even more.

I am all for and desire to direct my support for an improved or alternate system. Again, it must be supported and flowed down from the top.


Thanks much…Arnie!!!!!!!

[Bowwild]

Friend,
It is unfortunate you were certified by someone who came across like that to you in your class. It is true, when you observe a tournament of 6,731 NASP archers many will exhibit poor from of one kind or another; lack of follow-through, improper bow hand set, and too much focus on the result (getting upset when they "miss").  However, the top shooters invariably do it exactly as the were supposed to be taught.

The weak link in the NASP chain (any trainer instructor chain for that matter) is the person who trains the student or the person who the student sees next after being trained. Very often the student is trained properly and then "dear ole dad" or a neighbor, other archer (not NASP certified) undoes the training.

You can show a horse how to drink and even lead him to the water. You can't however make him drink.

I've personally seen (trained) veteran archers according to NASP who, 2 days later shot the best score of their life. A traditional world champion picked up something (he didn't need much) in a class on the coast that he was very thrilled to learn as it helped his shooting.

We've trained folks who came out of other training programs just two weeks prior. They said the prior training couldn't compare to the NASP training.  Now, this is no condemnation by me of that prior training because I know it also and there is only one tiny difference in the two. I can only assume the NAA trainer who presented that class didn't do any better a job than the person who taught your class.

By the way, the String Bow is a very important tool to use when teaching form, shot execution, and follow-throught the first time. It is also a critical tool for every archer to use to maintain their shot process. Using a loop of string is effective at teaching this without the distraction of a real bow and arrow.

[Javi]

Good form is an opinion, archery accuracy is about doing the same thing every time and repeatable form is good form. The current “Coach Lee” form is great if you start as a youngster but other form styles have also withstood the test of time and have proven to be “good” form.
 
I find that you have to work with the individual to establish what is doable for them and not try and cookie cutter them into a mold of “your idea” of good form.. If they can repeat it consistently under pressure then it is “good” form.  Fifty year old folks can’t use the same form as ten year old kids.

BTW is you research it you’ll find that Coach Lee has changed his tune on the B.E.S.T. system and is not requiring everyone to teach it or use it, like he first attempted.

[moebow]

All,  Thank you for your comments, input and discussion.  

Bowwild, I truly believe that the NASP program is the greatest program that has ever hit the archery community and I'm very involved myself.  One of the reasons I started this thread (JUST ONE OF THE REASONS) is that I have been asked by several NASP BAIs in my local area to present an USA Archery Intermediate instructor's class to them.  When I first started volunteering and working with their programs, to a person, they expressed their greatest concern.  It was that they could get their shooters to a 250/270 score level but then were afraid to try to continue improving that student because they did not feel comfortable with their own level of knowledge.  So the end result was to leave them (the students) alone.

It has been a few years since I received my own BAI certification but at the time it was designed to take a teacher (probably a non-shooter) give them a one/two day class that gave them a good start on range set up, safety and "the steps."  It seemed to me at the time that the reasons for the steps were somewhat (or totally) lacking (this may have been the particular class I was in).  I have the greatest admiration for the efforts Tim Stickland and all the others put in to developing the program, it is a GREAT job accomplished.

I would point out two examples of form knowledge deficiencies that I see with the BAIs I work with. First, regarding the "tall T".  The instructors understand that form requirement but when the NASP targets are placed on the floor at 10 meters (or less), the archers invariably will drop their bow arm to line up with the target which destroys the "T" form by changing the bow arm to spine angleand many instructors do not know how to correct this.  The second one ( and I see this locally and I saw it at Nationals last year) is upon release, the shooters know from their instructors that they should end up with the string hand on the top of their shoulder.  So what you frequently see is the hand flying sharply out from the face (into space) then as or after their arrow hits the target move it back to the top of the shoulder. Striking the "perfect pose," but with out the real understanding of how or why it should get there.

I totally agree with your comments about the string bow and would even add in the rubber stretch band as great training  tools.  The reality though is that kids (AND ADULTS TOO) want to HIT something when they shoot.  It takes some real desire for the kids to work on the string bow when that bow and arrow are laying there just begging to be shot.  I also introduce BAIs that I work with with the concept of blank bale work.  Many of them are unfamiliar with this idea too.

All instructors come with varying degrees of interest, dedication and capability.  I don't know any way any program can insure against less than interested and involved instructors.  I do know that at least here in Minnesota that the perrenial top shooters are from schools that have access to top USA Archery coaches and many of those BAIs also have taken training in the BEST system to get more "background" information and knowledge.  Not all school BAIs can or want to sacrifice still more time and money for what amounts to a school teacher's extra duty assignment.  Ya, and if you ever figure out how to get the parents to quit "helping" that would be one for posterity!

Anyway, as I said earlier, GREAT discussion!  I DO believe that the NASP is the BEST thing in archery for getting the kids involved.

[Bowwild]

Moebow,
I appreciate your insight.

The low butts are a product of school safety evaluations.  Keeping the target 4" or so from the floor is a trajectory issue. You are certainly correct that blank bales should be the starting target and should be returned to as often as needed if the student is reacting poorly to the result in the target.

Re: another post. I must respectfully disagree with "repeatable is proper".  Do something wrong long enough and it will bite you. A 4th grader and an 57 year old (me)should be taught the same way and shoot the same way.

[moebow]

Javi,  We will have to agree to AGREE    

The BEST is just one way to initially TEACH a new shooter and even Coach Lee says in his book that HOW you get to bone on bone alignment and into your back muscles is not nearly so important as getting there.  Most of the "styles" I've seen seem to acknowledge that these two elements are what we are striving for.  I for one just think that the steps outlined in the system are the best way for me to get a shooter going.  Yes, age, physical limitations and individual "quirks" must be dealt with.  The way I do this is by having a mental image of what an "ideal shooter" should look like then coaching them TOWARD that image.  Not by insisting on a "cookie cutter approach" as you put it.

Repeatable form has always been the goal!  I submit that the BEST system can and does help produce that repeatable form but it is not the only way to do it.  The human is remarkably adaptable but it takes a knowledgeable instructor to guide them to a successful and repeatable form.

Thank you for all the input folks -- keep it coming if you aren't getting burned out.

[Bowwild]

I'm going to back up a moment. Actually, I agree with Javi that whatever form the archer can replicate from shot to shot will likely produce small groups. Here's the challenge with that though (and any process), physics, anatomy, and most importantly of all the workings of one's mind come into play and can be different from day to day..year to year, etc.

Most people will have better luck with skeletal support rather than muscles (low wrist vs. high wrist for example). Most people do better with relaxed positioning rather than tense (flat back of draw hand vs. bowed back of hand).  Most people would do well (the biggest problem in archery IMO)to focus more on the "back of the shot" (follow-through) instead of the result.

I just came from my 3-D range with my son and grandson. I had to remind myself of that last one a couple of times.

I also agree the papers aren't the thing. Its the learning and putting information to work. One must understand it to appreciate it. I fear too many folks are provided a shallow understanding of "why" certain things are best (yes, in NASP, USA, NFAA, 4-H, etc.)and therefore don't stick tot their training.  

As Yogi Bera might have said, had he been an archer, "Whatever works for you will, until it won't."

[Javi]

There are certain commonalities in good form which we as instructors should guide our students to use, such as not moving the head, putting the hand in the grip the same each time, maintaining the shoulders parallel to the arrow, keeping the shoulders down, stance and alignment of the body that allows freedom from muscle tension, and many more; but to say only one form is the correct form for everyone is just silly. Take for instance shoulder alignment, not everyone’s shoulder will drop into place at the same angle and because of this it is impossible to establish one angle, or to make an absurd analogy; not every woman has to accommodate 36D breasts while drawing a bow..  You lead them to the best form they can obtain, then work with them to make it repeatable..

The mental aspect of the shooting is far more important than the form, learning that you don’t change the process just because you missed seems to be the most difficult to learn and to teach.
   
I spent the entire morning on the field range working on up, down and side hill shots with a young man who is headed to New Mexico this fall for his first elk hunt. He has been shooting a longbow for 3 full weeks and is a fast study. He will be ready..

[Rob DiStefano]

with only stickbows in mind, the bottom line is that the national and international orgs are all target oriented, particularly fita and the olympics.  the focus is mainly on freestyle fingers, and coaches are certified with that in mind.  

stickbow target archery and trad bowhunting have some similarities and a gaggle of dissimilarities  

figuring out how to "certify" a trad bowhunter coach - along the likes of Ferguson, Jenkins, Asbell - is the real task at hand.  who is qualified to 'certify' is the first question.  NOT those target oriented orgs, no thank you!

[moebow]

Javi,  I'm not sure that I see anyone on this thread saying that there is ONLY one form.  I would disagree that the "mental aspect of the shooting is far more important than the form."  Without the support structure (form), I don't care how positive your mental thoughts are or how confident you are, ONLY form (of some sort) will allow the positive mental attitude to prevail.  The mental game is AS important but not "far more."

Again, Javi, I'm enjoying this discussion and I am learning from it.  You point out one area that is of interest to me.  That is your statement that the shoulders should be parallel to the arrow.  I shot like that for most of my life but as I got older (and like many) I could no longer comfortably pull the 65# bows I shot comfortably for years.  Since I "drank the BEST cool aid" and have gotten my shoulders lined up so the string shoulder is in line with the bow shoulder and in the same line to the bow hand, called the barrel of the gun in the BEST system, (yes, angling across the arrow line and to the right of the target for a right hander) I once again have the "strength" to draw, hold and shoot the 65# bows.  My shoulder has a better alignment and is nowhere near as strained as it used to be.  Just one example to be sure but this form has proven itself as having FEWER shoulder injuries than the older theory of the parallel shouders.  But that is the point I think several of us are trying to make.  Good form has been recognized for a long time but good form also implies fewer injuries.  Looking at some of the pictures of the "old masters" shows basically good form in all/most of them.  Don't look at the motion of the shot (which varies from shooter to shooter) but at their alignment just at the moment of release.  

Anyway, I wish your young student good luck on his elk hunt.  I hope he "pokes" a real trophy!!!!

[Javi]

I believe you are misconstruing my statement about the shoulder parallel to the arrow.. This is also found in the BEST system as it is in every good instruction book.. Without this alignment you would have a difficult time with uneven ground or distant targets.. In fact the lack of this alignment has probably missed more deer from a treestand than any string jumping ever caused..

Could you be confusing the statement with a parallel to the target line shoulder alignment that was touted for several years by compound shooters in order to increase draw length.. It would be difficult if not impossible to get the shoulders down into the sockets for bone on bone alignment and use a parallel stance..

I’m not a fan of Coach Lee or his system; in fact I resigned from NAA coaching as did many others because of his original edict that all NAA coaches must follow his teachings or be ousted. But his concept of biomechanics has some merit even if most of it is a rehash of past methods using bigger words..