A challenge to us traditional guys

[Joe Subler]

I once heard that it takes 10 positve remarks to outweigh 1 negative remark in our subconsience so we should all watch what is said in person or on the 'net even as a joke.  My best friend shoots a compound and is as good a hunter as anyone and I wouldn't miss the opportunity to share a hunt with him.  On our last trip to Idaho elk hunting he got an elk early in the week and spent the rest of his time helping me scout and helping to haul out my elk on his back (at 74 he can run rings around me!).  In my estimate, there are some compounders who take long shots and use  broadheads which are way too small but there are also some traditional hunters who can't hit the broad side of a barn at 15 yards and use dull broadheads.  Most of us choose to hunt with those who are like minded in our ethics and how enjoyable they make the hunt. I will continue to choose whom I hunt with based on my standards but will not make that choice based on whether they shoot with a tradional or compound bow. Just saying    

Cheers

[JamesV]

Call me nilley willey, I hunt with a compound, longbow and recurve. Just jump back and forth and having fun. After many years of "Killing" it just isn't that important anymore, just love to sit in the woods with my bow or even my gun. Heck I even have friends I hunt with using crossbows.

[swamprooter]

I must be weird I think excaliber recurve xbows are cool as all get out and plan on getting one when I have the funds. I shoot my recurve more than anything else but I still enjoy my compound as well. I don't even care if they allow xbows in the archery season, there is enough game to go around, and I am a firm believer in it's the hunter not the bow that brings home the game.

I think we need to worry more about anti hunters than people that hunt, no matter what they are hunting with. Chris

[SlowBowke]

All true, Gang and I try.

I've helped SEVERAL people set up compounds yet fruitlessly attempt to "nudge" them at least towards a decent broadhead, if nothing else.

I've tracked deer for wheelie shooters/guns shooters alike.

That said.........I DO hope a similar thread is on THEIR sites.

More times than I can count......Ive been called every insulting name you can come up with and "educated" by those "better than I am" BECAUSE (and maybe if they new me it would be true but they didnt *grin*) I hunted with trad equipment.

Running a deer butchering shop for some 15 years, I was introduced to the best and the worst of both bunches of hunters. (or how many bunches there are of them?)

More times than I can count I've been "lectured" about "having more respect for game animals than to hunt with such $hit". Now....Im a SLOW man to rile but that will trip my trigger.....HARD!

Years back I was shooting my Asbell Bighorn and BW MAII at a local range trying out some new arrows I made.

Puffing his chest out a "gentleman" came up and asked "You dont HUNT with those bows......DO YOU?!!"

"Uh...of course" I replied.

For 15 minutes I was lectured on KE, "humane" equipment, respect for game animals, "decent speed" and "gotta have quarter inch groups or stay home".

When two others joined in I think the owner of the shop and LONG time friend saw the veins in my neck starting to throb.

He came over and calmly informed the gentleman that "this guy has taken second place in our indoor PAA fun/rounds three years running...WITH that 62lb recurve and wood arrows shooting against ALL bow types WITH sights AND......I know this for fact.....has taken more deer with his bows than all of you put together adding ALL your choices of weapons".

The reply?

"Ok...so he's an idiot that can shoot.........he's still an idiot"

At that point.....my rubicon had been crossed....so to speak.

All three left when I was done, furious and yelling insults.

From that day to this one.......I dont say squat around others till I feel them out a bit nor do I shoot at public ranges. Isnt worth it to me anymore.

When a local guy is interested in trad, many call me or my buddy to help out, and we always do.

Worse part of all of this, IMHO, is the "two years experienced" shooter, using all his gadgets somehow gets the idea he is the ONLY one capable of such groups and sets upon new hunters with the attitude that "it's MY way or you too are an idiot" and "he read where" or " Professional hunter Joe Blow says" etc etc......is gospel and NO other way .."works".

Stacking arrows in a 2 inch circle time after time just makes for "proof" to new shooters, I'm afraid and it's only after a few years of shooting "state of the art" equipment that some/many (bet some are reading this now) "figure out" that ..........

wait for it

Something is MISSING!

Sorry to be the Devil's Advocate guys. Just my 2 cents.

A great post, and greater advice but IMHO.......THAT shoe is being worn by "the other foot" so to speak.

God Bless
Slow

[jhg]

Originally posted by BradLantz:
...Talking with compounders is very difficult, they all want to shoot 350 gr total weight, mechanical heads the majority and 300 fps.

I seem to be the guy always going against the grain as far as broadhead choice, and I argue KE all the time...

Same here to some extent.

I hunt with three guys who all carry compounds and two of them are in the mechanical BH camp. But don't worry about it. Its their choice. I do find it interesting the explanation I was given for a mechanical head was they were getting poor flight using Broadheads when the same arrow flew great with field points. I mentioned maybe they ought to give up a little fps and add some fletching. They acted like they'd been gut shot, to take a quote from Del-Q!

But these are good guys. They hunt with tackle that may differ from ours but they are hunting with bows, even if those bows are actually contraptions (my definition).

I think OUR job is to lead by example. Show them how we are FUN to be around. They have a right to hunt in the way they choose to hunt and with what gear.

 Its not our place to tell them its wrong. We can only demonstrate another way by example.

Joshua

[swamprooter]

IMO the biggest disservice done to bowhunters and the game they hunt, regardless of the bows shot, is the crap broadheads that are pushed now days. IMO if it don't cut on contact, and I can't resharpen it myself with a file and a stone, it ain't a broadhead. If you can't get good flight, learn how to tune your set up or get rid of the crap bow, again, regardless of the bow in question. Chris

[BradLantz]

Joshua - yes, its their choice, however to my knowledge in Arkansas, its legal to hunt with dull rusty broadheads, mismatched arrows and no practice or ability to hit what you're shooting for.

Doesn't make it good choices does it?

I 100% believe is mechanical heads were banned, fewer deer would be wounded/lost.


If you think about it, few things about the hunt change (whether you're using a crossbow/compound/recurve/longbow/selfbow) until its ready and time to shoot.

Then a lot changes, but for the most part, as bowhunters we got to get 20-25 yards from the animals.

[BuckyT]

Originally posted by JamesV:
Call me nilley willey, I hunt with a compound, longbow and recurve. Just jump back and forth and having fun. After many years of "Killing" it just isn't that important anymore, just love to sit in the woods with my bow or even my gun. Heck I even have friends I hunt with using crossbows.

I don't think you're nilley willey.  I just obtained a recurve and plan on hunting with it quite a bit from here on out.  But....I'm not going to hunt with strictly a recurve or trad equipment forever.

I too enjoy hunting with multiple weapons.  I'm not trying to prove anything to anybody when I'm out hunting.  I hunt for me period.

I shot my first deer with a compound.  My dad, uncles, and granddad thought I was nuts wanting to hunt with a bow.  I was 13yrs old.  Soon after my first deer hit the ground, my dad went and got a bow and has been bowhunting with me ever since.  Now I'm trying to get him into trad, but I think I'm going to have to kill something with it to pursuade him.  Just like I had to do with a compound..LOL!

[straitera]

Slobowke, you have patience. Admired. Elitist attitude sucks! That is, elitists know more about what is positively Gospel than you'll ever know, enough to make your decisions for you! At which time you should be grateful. BS!! Try careful to be good traditional archery stewards not to return the favor. Where else have I seen this?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Originally posted by Turkeys Fear Me:
 

Originally posted by Kirkll:


I cannot help feel animosity and down right disgust for guys flinging arrows 80-100 yards at game animals.... period..... it's down right irresponsible shooting those distances with an arrow, even if you practice daily and can group your arrow consistently at those long distances...... the animals move before the arrow arrives even with arrows traveling over 300 FPS.... I've seen it happen with my own eyes too many times.....

I have to take issue with you on this one Kirk.  It doesn't matter  if its's 80 yards or 8 yards.  If you can't consistently make the shot, the distance or equipmnet is irrelevant. There are people that I would feel more comfortable with taking 80 yard shots on game with a compound than others taking 8 yard shots on game with their longbow.  An afternoon at any trad shoot will illustrate this clearly.

Equipment choices don't make you a "hunter."  Whatever equipment you choose, knowing it's (and your) limitations, and more importantly staying within them, is what makes you a "hunter." [/b]

It does matter if it's 8 yards or 80 yards... and it's down right irresponsible in my opinion taking the 80-100 yard shots even if you are an excellent shot....

The point i was making is the the time it takes the arrow to get to the animal even using a bow that shoots 300 FPS is over a full second at that range..... it's the difference between a perfect shot, and a gut shot.... I've watched it happen with my own eyes with a guy that could shoot very well out to 80 yards, and we spent a full day tracking the animal that was gut shot before losing it.... That same guy won't shoot over 40 yards now.

unfortunately these would-be rifle hunters using these modern arrow casting machines is that they don't even care.... the guys I'm talking about aren't archers at all... they purchase this equipment to get an advantage and hunt during archery season.... that's it.... AND... there are a lot more of those guys out there than most people realize..... it sucks!

[Arwin]

In response to the original thread:

 Some of the best hunts I ever went on were with hunters who used a different weapon than I.

 Last season I was coming out of the woods and saw a guy walking towards the parking area toting a crossbow.

 Now I have a deep seeded dislike for those contraptions, I mean DEEP!! If I could snap my fingers, they would disappear minus to those who really need them.  
 
 The realization I did have though, is it wasn't the weapon that defined who this individual is.
  I enjoyed our 20 minute chat and saw this guy has the same passion I do about hunting deer and the same views about how we need to conserve the resource instead of passing laws to allow extermination of the whitetail.

 He admited to being a little embarassed about using the x-bow but had no choice due to bad shoulders then showed me the surgery scars. I sorta felt for him because the crossbow is neither viewed as a bow or a gun, he didn't know how to fit in. I was ashamed of my first glance opinion of this guy before we even talked

 What it comes down to, is there is a group of like minded individuals that share the same values, passion and intensity that more or less shines through the traditional archery crowd.

  We are not just special because of the tool we choose, it's the example set by the majority of traditionalists to pursue game on the most difficult level, respect the game we hunt, and love everything that surrounds us in the woods.

 I fear through the advances in technology, hunters won't be hunters, they will be killers.
 
 I have been fortunate enough to have been influenced by hunters from the "old school" days, when being a bowhunter meant you were a stubborn , crazy S.O.B. sitting out in the worst elements possible. Yet at the same time, old school bowhunters are probably the best example of being conservationist out there.

 It's all in the frame of mind.

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Originally posted by Turkeys Fear Me:
I find that those that ridicule others for their legal huning methods or equipment are usually dealing with some insecurities of their own.

Not always but often.

Exactly!

It seems the only time some of these folks stop complaining about modern archery tackle is when they're searching for their arrows in the weeds past whatever target they just missed.

[Turkeys Fear Me]

Originally posted by Kirkll:
It does matter if it's 8 yards or 80 yards... and it's down right irresponsible in my opinion taking the 80-100 yard shots even if you are an excellent shot....

First of all Kirk, the amount of people that actually take 80-100 yard shots on game with a compound are about as common as the traditional archers who can shoot 2 inch groups at 20 yards.  We read about them every day, but they just don't very often exist outside of a keyboard.  

Second, the yardage doesn't really matter to the the extent that in either case, a hunter must stay within his range.  A traditional hunter shooting at game at 8 yards is not one bit better than a compound hunter shooting at 80 yards when their effective ranges are 4 and 40.

[Autumnarcher]

I shoot what I shoot because its what I like to shoot. I hunted with wheels for many years. Most of my friends still do. I'm sure not gonna let the tool i choose hunting decide for me who my friends are. Some like open ended wrenches, some like box end wrenches. Who cares. The bow is the tool.

What I won't hunt with are law breaking slobs with no respect for the game pursued. I've hunted with some on occasion that showed their true colors right quick, and I won't hunt with 'em again. Now they might be good friends in other areas of my life, but I wont hunt with 'em.

I get ribbed and ripped on by wheelie shooters. SOme in good fun, some is authentic dislike for me because I shoot a longbow. Thats thier issue not mine.

I teach Hunter Safety and bowhunter ed at a youth summer camp. One thing I did when I was Camp director is make sure we have ample supply of longbows, recurves and compounds. We encourage the kids to try them all, and decide for themselves what is the most fun for them. Then we give them as much instruction and coaching as we can over the weekend. I can say many of them really find the trad bow fun( no surprise there). Each year I've given a trrad bow to a kid who really takes a shine to it.

But if I have a kid shooting wheels that needs help, I give it freely. I try to be a good ambassador of the traditional discipline of archery, but whats more, we preach responsibility afield over all else.

I know guys who would love to take up trad archery, but admit  they dont have the time to practice enough to feel comfortable in the woods with one. I would much rather see someone admit that, than do it just to do it without adequate shooting skills. And there are plenty of those in the woods with  any weapon.

A bow is a bow, archery is archery. No different than fishing. SOme use a fly rod, some a spin cast setup, and others prefer to troll.

[bsoper]

It's never the hunter I look down upon (My hunting buddy shots a compound), just the equipment  

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Originally posted by Turkeys Fear Me:
 

Originally posted by Kirkll:
It does matter if it's 8 yards or 80 yards... and it's down right irresponsible in my opinion taking the 80-100 yard shots even if you are an excellent shot....

First of all Kirk, the amount of people that actually take 80-100 yard shots on game with a compound are about as common as the traditional archers who can shoot 2 inch groups at 20 yards.  We read about them every day, but they just don't very often exist outside of a keyboard.

  Second, the yardage doesn't really matter to the the extent that in either case, a hunter must stay within his range.  Second, the yardage doesn't really matter to the the extent that in either case, a hunter must stay within his range.  A traditional hunter shooting at game at 8 yards is not one bit better than a compound hunter shooting at 80 yards when their effective ranges are 4 and 40. [/b]

The point i'm trying to make is that a lot of these guys DON'T have an effective range, much less stick to it.... and even a guy who can shoot 80 yards effectively has no control over the time it takes for the arrow to get to the target... This makes the shot a 40:1 gamble instead of a reasonable chance for success at closer yardages.

i hunted with a compound bow for a lot of years, and the group i hunt with all still use them... but... these guys are hunters at heart. they respect the fact I've decided to take up the stick and string with no problem at all, and i feel no urge to convert them to Traditional archery either. These are great guys i hunt with, and they enjoy shooting my bows, but prefer something more accurate with site pins to hunt with.... i can live with that.

[Turkeys Fear Me]

Kirk:

Apparently, you and I have a difference of opinion on what "effective range" means.  To me, effective range depends on a combination of the target, the situation, the equipment, and the archer.  What is effective range on a stationary target is NOT necessarily effective range on a live animal.

Your last paragraph actually proves my point:

 "i hunted with a compound bow for a lot of years, and the group i hunt with all still use them... but...  

these guys are hunters at heart.  

they respect the fact I've decided to take up the stick and string with no problem at all, and i feel no urge to convert them to Traditional archery either. These are great guys i hunt with, and they enjoy shooting my bows, but prefer something more accurate with site pins to hunt with.... i can live with that."

When all is said and done, it's not the equipment that makes the hunter.

[GRINCH]

Jeff and Arwin,thats what it's all about not what you shoot,we all have circumstances that dictate our abilities,it doesn't matter if you have to shoot a croosbow,prefer a compound what matters is that you respect what your hunting,and don't take any unethical shots.