Carbons a different animal !!!

[Ottawa Archer]

This has been a great thread!! I've gotten a lot of information I've been wondering about! Thanks!

[babs]

I just picked up a bob lee recurve and wanted to shoot beeman mfx arrows, the bow is 55 at 29 I'll draw to 28 so about 52lbs what spine of arrow should I get I'll be shooting the 200 grain VPA broadheads and I can use the brass inserts. I dont wont to go overboard with weight up front but i could use the 50 grain or 75 grain brass inserts it dont matter I hope you can help thanks shawn

[Shawn Leonard]

Shot just that bow for a while, I would go with  CE 150(.487 spine)cut to 29"s(leave 31"s and cut back 1/4" at a time from nock end until it tunes) and a regular insert and that 200VPA, bet you are right there. I would say you will end up right around 29"s, use a good 10-12 starnd FF string as well. Shawn

[Shawn Leonard]

BSDS, I cannot find anywhere that said I shoot a 400 spine. I looked at all my posts and if I do have to shoot one I add a lot of point weight. I have been getting a ton of positive PM's and doing my best to answer everyone. I will say that I like an arrow 29-29.5"s so I cut mine that length and It has become very easy to adjust point weight with all the brass inserts and add a weight systems and steel adapters. etc,etc. that is how I tune, Remember you are best getiing close in spine by common sense and than leave long and cut back a 1/4" at a time until ya get the flight you want. Cut from the nock end, so you don't have to keep removing your inserts. I think we are doing good, and getting the word out so guys do not waste a lot of money starting out of the ballpark. Shawn

[Terry Green]

Yes....Carbons are a different animal....ESPECIALLY Arrow Dynamic Trads....for me.

I've been shooting them exclusively for nearly 10 years now.

What ever bow I want to use, from 58 to 78#s....with what ever head I want to use...from 150 to 225 grains......all cut 29"s. This 'animal' don't care what bow I shoot it out of, or what its toting on the front end.

I haven't been in the 'guess the spine' game for nearly a decade.  Yep, way different.

[Shawn Leonard]

Terry, exactly and I know you can flat out shoot. Just trying to get others to find a good starting point. Those ADs really help being tapered as well. 78#s would kill me anymore, I can still shoot it but would have trouble getting out of bed the next day!!(lol) Shawn

[Terry Green]

No worries Shawn....that's why I said 'for me'.  Some folks can't shoot em, but many have had the same results I have.  So again, for me, they are definitely a different animal.

   

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Terry Green:
Yes....Carbons are a different animal....ESPECIALLY Arrow Dynamic Trads....for me.

I've been shooting them exclusively for nearly 10 years now.

What ever bow I want to use, from 58 to 78#s....with what ever head I want to use...from 150 to 225 grains......all cut 29"s. This 'animal' don't care what bow I shoot it out of, or what its toting on the front end.

I haven't been in the 'guess the spine' game for nearly a decade.  Yep, way different.

i have real problems getting any static stiff spined arrow to fly well ... BUT, i can shoot any AD arrow type from 28.5"-30" long out of any of my bows with truly great arrow flight.  and these are really STIFF arrows.  dunno exactly why, but i'm sure the aft end shaft tapering is part of that equation.  terry once told me "just shoot the AD, don't worry about the spine" and he was dead on right.  the AD's are in a class by themselves.    

[joe skipp]

I said in an earlier post here...my AD Trad Lites cut 28.5" with 255 grains up front fly perfectly out to 60 yds from my 56# Groves and 58# Kempf recurve at my 27" draw.

If I left them 29.5" or 30"...I could get away with a 50 gr brass insert instead of the 100. These shafts seem to work well out of a variety of bows and weights.

I'll still shoot my 2117 Dougherty Naturals 90% of the time and I don't get any "ping" or noise upon release. As Sergio stated..."Thats the last noise they may hear"....and I hunted with Serg...
He don't lie....well...may exaggerate at times..
   

[SteveB]

I shoot 30" 400 spine GT, Vapors, and ACC's with 125 to 175 gr points (standard inserts) out of my 53# (at 29") DAS. Centershot set so string is pn the right side of arrow point. Bareshaft groups perfectly with fletched and perfect BH flight.

[Shawn Leonard]

Steve, agree but try a .500 spine with same point weight. It will fly very well for you I am sure. I have to agree that Dalaas and other ILF set-up are forgiving but what I am saying is most guys could get away with a lighter spine and get even better results. The ADs that Terry, Joe and Rob are referring to our a different animal unto themselves, the taper and the weight forward built into the shaft have even more positive effect on the spine range people can get away with. Shawn

[SteveB]

The 500's are ok (no better) with 125's, but are lighter then I want to shoot for hunting. Fine for 3d and quite a bit faster.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

the physical properties of how the shelf is cut with regards to the centerline of the riser is extremely important when in conjunction with dynamic arrow spine. then add in the shooter's form consistency, or lack thereof.
 

This statement pretty much tells the whole story.

But.... in addition to this i think the bows limb design itself, brace height used, the type of string determining the efficiency rating, in concert with shelf cut out location can be a determining factor on spine selection too.

an extreme example would be a 50 pound recurve cut to 1/8" past center with a 16 strand string, and braced at 8.5" that shoots 170 fps.....

vs..... a long bow of the same weight cut to center using a 6 strand string, braced at 6", shooting 195 fps.....  the long bow here can and will shoot the same weight arrow with a stiffer spine shaft with the same length and same point weight even though its only cut to center. The same thing applies to round wheels, vs energy cams in a compound bow....  

The very cool part about carbon shafts is the recovery time is so much quicker.

I've always leaned on the side of tuning a more flexible shaft with the right point weight. I'm  thinking that if you were to get a less than perfect release, the effect on the arrow flight wont be as extreme as a stiffer spine shaft.....

Any thoughts on that line of thinking guys?

[Shawn Leonard]

Kirkll, agreed but this thread was just to get guys in the ballpark, not an end all to tuning carbons. I just see so many guys starting out with too stiff a shaft and giving up on carbons. Re-read my earlier posts, there are many variables but one thing I am sure, is most guys start out with shafts that are too stiff. I said earlier, shelf cut, braceheight,nocks being too tight,etc.etc. They all have an effect on what spine will work, but if guys are way out of the ballpark they will end up spending lots of money and never being happy. Shawn

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I'm with ya brutha Shawn.... I'm with ya...

I totally agree that most guys are going off the arrow charts and cutting their arrows too short from the get go.
 

What's your opinion on a more flexible shaft being more forgiving of a less than perfect release, vs a stiffer spine?  Is this a fragment of my fig-nuten? or is there something to this?

[Shawn Leonard]

I agree more flexible allows for a sloppier release. I read where Blacky said when using a shooting machine the arrow goes thru very little paradox side to side so you can get away with a much stiffer spine, that is why bows cut well past center can shoot a variety of spines better. I believe a lot of aboriginals used arrows that were 36-40"s long and they had short draw lengths cause the longer arrow straightened out pretty quick even with not much point weight. Shawn