Way over spined... Why?

[Elk whisperer]

from my experience your about right

[compound_convert]

how does 1 know if bow likes a stiff arrow? forgive me im a newbie to the trad way. thinking it has to do with the arrow kicking out in a certain direction

[compound_convert]

and another on cut past center that refers to ? sorry if it bothers anyone with the questions but 1 will never know until he asks the question n listens  for the answer, thank you.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by compound_convert:
how does 1 know if bow likes a stiff arrow? forgive me im a newbie to the trad way. thinking it has to do with the arrow kicking out in a certain direction

until your true trad form emerges, the one that's most consistent and feels best, you'll never know for sure what shaft spines and shaft types will work best for you.

that said, shooting into a non-directional butt, right nock is stiff spine, left nock weak.  many reasons for this and many ways to correct.  

in the best of all circumstances, getting local help/mentoring from a trad archery savvy person will cut down yer learning curve and spent dollars a whole bunch.  tough to cyber coach - and do be careful, 'cause you might get well intentioned advice that's just not what you need.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by compound_convert:
and another on cut past center that refers to ? sorry if it bothers anyone with the questions but 1 will never know until he asks the question n listens  for the answer, thank you.

if you lay down the braced bow on its back and sight down the limbs, using the string to bisect the limbs, what's considered "center shot" is when the string and the arrow plate meet.  that's not a true center shot. which is when the center of the arrow is in perfect alignment with the centered string - and to do that would mean the arrow plate would be 3/16" to the right of center (as with most compounds).

[PaddyMac]

Another vote that Monterey got it.

My arrows are 31" 5575 GT trads with 175 gr. in a 30" draw at 50#.

My bare shafting with a single layer strike plate took on an expensive trek through heavy points and 7795 shafts which were flying crazy and 225 gr points. In fact you're sounding a lot like my early summer posts.

Then I learned on here about center cut vs. arrow diameter affects spine. It's pretty dramatic.

I added a layer of buckskin below my strike plate and everything immediately changed. But still confusing. When I went up to my 67 # limbs it got even crazier.

Then I took another layer of buckskin and masking taped it on OVER the calfskin strike plate and on my first shot of a 5575 bare shaft (at 50#) I was looking at nothing but nock as far back as I wanted to go. A 200 gr. point nocks slightly left. A 145 gr. point nocks slightly right.

I have a 3/16th center cut. So do you.

I'd experiment with building up your strike plate. You can do it temporarily, pretty easy. Mine is two layers of deer skin and one layer of HD velcro rug. When I go to wood arrows this winter I'll have to retune, of course, but arrow diameter and centercut are another important part of the equation.

The guy who really knows about this is Big Jim Babcock.

[Shawn Leonard]

My point is that I have seen what lots of guys consider good or perfect flight and sorry but I would not hunt with a lot of guys arrow flight. I agree that it has to do with the archer but come on, arrows that are made to be shot out of 70 plus pound compounds cut to say 29"s with 125 grain points should not have to be shot out of 60# or a tad more recurves. I am sorry no one can convince me otherwise. I never said not to do what ya want, I just know I could get a lighter spined arrow even with you shooting it too fly fine out of that bow and not have to play with the strike plate and all that stuff. Shawn

[Rob DiStefano]

i hear ya shawn, but everybody's different.  and there's a learning curve to all this stuff, that's for sure.  a few years (decades?) down the trad road and things can change, for sure again.  

[Shawn Leonard]

Agreed Rob! Shawn

[Shawn Leonard]

I would also like to say that carbons are spined on 14" centers, so take a carbon that say is 65#s on a spine tester now support it at 26" and center the weight at 13"s and see what it spines, a lot more I promise! Shawn

[PaddyMac]

This is one of things I like so much about traditional/instinctive archery. Once you get rid of the pins and the biscuit and release, it's all witchery and can be very big medicine.

   

[Troy Breeding]

I look at it as only you can say whay will work for you. It can change from year to year, and if your new to trad it could very well change month to month.

If it shoots for you, then use it.

Troy

[plentycoupe]

Shawn,
If you don't mind elaborating a bit please, what is it that you would do to, or suggest in order to get me shooting the lighter spined arrows?
Thanks for the input
Jason

[Looper]

Just draw about 3 inches less. Just kidding. I'm interested to hear what he says. Personally, I don't think you'll be able to. I mean, look at your results. With the first arrow you talked about, your were able to get them to bare shaft with the 125 grain point. Same thing with the 5575/ 125 combo. That tells you right there that that spine and point combination is what works for you. It doesn't matter what I, Shawn, Rob or the Pope, says should work, you've seen with your own two eyes what does work.

Since those combos are too light, you'll have to look elsewhere. Adding weight tubes to those shafts might work, but I personally don't have any experience with them and don't know if they change the spine or not.

You, like me, happen to be one of the people that the Stu Miller calculator can be beneficial to. It has been a great predictor for me and has gotten me close to the spine I need and the weight I want. Sure there is some tweaking involved. But I can guarantee you, that you could use a human version of the calculator, and you'll need to do same amount of tweaking. The final verdict will only come when you actually shoot the arrow.

Before that calculator came along, I used some old  tried and true formulas for finding the right wood spines I needed for my bows. I could get close, primarily because I shot the same style bows for years. There would still be some fine tuning needed. When I started shooting various types of bows, recurves, r/d longbows, horsebows, hill-style, etc, I had a very hard time getting the spines right. I ended up with fairly extensive test kits, both in wood and aluminum. I found the Easton charts not to be much help.

Then I started messing with carbon shafts. My first foray into that didn't last too long. This was before Tradgang, so my only source of advice was in pro shops geared toward compounds. More often than not, they had absolutely no idea what I needed, and more than once I bought a lot of stuff I couldn't use. I just stuck with aluminum, tolerating all of the bent shafts.

The last year, maybe longer, I've been fooling with Stu's calculator. It has been amazingly close to a most of the setups I've used over the years. That was my first test of it. To see if it concurred with what I knew worked. It did, for the most part. The first versions of it weren't as accurate as the current one, but they were still pretty close.

I did try to go with a lighter spine. I, too, had read that a lot of guys were really using way too much spine and that they would experience a joyous enlightenment if they'd just throw a few hundred grains on the ends of their arrows, or some such talk. Well, I tried it.

I added a lot of weight, it didn't work, and I ended up with 850 grain arrows. I went down in spine to keep the weight more reasonable. Same poor result. Now, like you, I've got a bunch of arrows that are too light in spine for me to get the weight I want.

But you want to know something interesting. I really don't use it for myself much anymore. I've been shooting Arrow Dynamics arrows out of several of my bows.  These arrows aren't in the calculator. I'm not sure why, but it doesn't matter anyway. I'm able to take one of those shafts, stay within a certain point weight range and get them to fly beautifully. Yesterday, in fact, before bow died on me, I was shooting 4 arrows, each with a different weight point (125,145,175,200). They all hit to the same point of aim out to 20 yards. The only tuning I need to do with those shafts is a minor brace height adjustment.

They aren't nearly as finicky as any of the other shafts I have, and weigh enough that I can shoot normal weight, inexpensive broadheads and still have the total arrow weight I want. The Hammerheads, in particular are the best stump shooting, small game shaft I've ever used. (side note: there's one coming in the mail to you with the other shafts)

Anyway, I hope everything goes well for you.

[Rob DiStefano]

in the long run, it's mostly about the shooter and not so much the bow, arrow, string, etc.  though carbons can be a bit finicky due to the vast range of their static and dynamic spines.  

some folks absolutely require a small range of arrow spine or bad things happen.  others can make major weak or mega stiff arrows fly consistently well and accurate, and there are more than a few trad gangers that are so blessed.  

in short order you'll know which camp you fall into, and if your arrow spine requirements are pretty rigid, you'll have yer work cut out for ya.  it is what it is.

[Looper]

Rob, are you saying that a person could shoot a bareshaft well with a variety of point weights? We're talking about getting a perfectly tuned arrow here, right? Not just getting a fletched arrow to hit the target.

I mean, I can take a bunch of fletched shafts that are spined over a pretty wide range and keep them all in a pretty small group.  For instance, the other day I shot my wood test kit out of my 50# Hill. The spines range from 50-55 to 80-85. With 125 grain tips on all of them, I was able to keep all 14 arrows on a paper plate at 18 yards. Some had a wobble, but they still went where I aimed.

Now, if I would have shot them all bareshafts or with broadheads, there's no way I could have kept them on that plate. I don't think a shooting machine could either. In fact, I know it wouldn't.

And, even though all of those shafts hit my target, there was one that was the best 65-70. The 60-65 and the 70-75 all worked, too, but it took bareshafting to reveal the best for me.

I just don't get what you're saying. If a mechanical device, the epitome of form and consistency, couldn't shoot a bareshaft perfectly with different point weights, how could a human being?  The only way to do that would be to adjust the draw length accordingly. That's the only variable that matters. The way a person grips the bow or string only adds negative input and can only detract from perfect flight, not improve it.

Sure you can cheat the system, so to speak. Use a bow with more centercut; use a tapered shaft; use a larger fletching; or what have you, but the archer himself and the way he interacts with a bow is a fairly defined act. Don't we all strive to be able to shoot as accurately as a machine?

Think about it. Saying a person could shoot a variety of spines is exactly the same as saying a person could shoot a variety of nock heights or a variety of strike plate thicknesses. Sure, you could still hit where you're aiming, but you wouldn't have perfect flight, which is the point of all of this.

[Rob DiStefano]

looper, both bare and fletched arrows.  bare shafting is always the first choice for testing, then move on to fletched ... however, even bareshafting can have a fair range of adjustment based solely on the shooter's expertise.

years ago, during my carbon shaft trialing i spent a ton of time and money sussing out a large variety of shafting.  there was no way that 29" beman 340 or even 400 bare shafts would fly well for me at 55#, and only 500's with 200 to 300 up front flew like darts at up to 15 yards.  go figure.  this is not a good or bad thing, we're all just a tad different and not all built from the same cookie cutter mold.  the gist of all this is to do yer own arrow shaft testing.

[CAT22]

I would only add this.... I don't know what the expertise level of the individual with the origional question is. I am certainly no expert, I'll add also. A few weeks ago I had never shot a bare shaft in my life. I went out to try it, just a few arrows. I had already PM'd Shawn Leonard about what I should expect. I was super confused cuz I was banging the bullseye with a straight shaft one after another. THEN, I started concentrating on my form and boom, way overspined as suggested. I was not anchoring well. Snap shooting. If the individual in question is experienced and just shoots that way, i'd say get some tube weights and bump up your overall weight and go for it. Otherwise, Shawn was dead on for what I needed up front to get good flight. I mean dead on. I hadn't reponded back to him, so thank you, Shawn. My bow is much quieter and much more forgiving. I'd consider what he is saying, just my 2 cents. Good luck.