Weird Shelf wear

[Archie]

Just watched your clips...

It looks to me like you might be pulling (holding) harder with your bottom two fingers.  It looks like your index finger is releasing more cleanly and your bottom two are baring the brunt of the release.  I have that tendency, and it gave me a big callous on my ring finger, and a big mark on my bow shelf.  At full-draw, I was putting downward pressure on the arrow nock and then at release, the pressure was released, resulting in a bang off the shelf and erratic flight.  I have learned now that when I hear a "clink" when I release, that means that I did it AGAIN, pulling too much with the ring finger, and the arrow has hit the shelf.  

Like I said earlier, I'm no expert.  I should probably excuse myself from this conversation so that other, more experienced people can give their opinions.

[khardrunner]

Nah stick around... my ring finger has been a bit sore. Maybe that's part of the problem though I have been trying to fix that.

[xtrema312]

Originally posted by Ric O'Shay:

Originally posted by khardrunner:

[QB]

Whoa HO!!!! The problem is solved!!!! It is hereditary......

                 [/b]

[xtrema312]

Pulling more with your bottom fingers will be a little like shooting 3 under and require more nock height.  3/16" is low for split for most people.  Form and tiller vary things.  I run more like 1/2" - 5/16" split and 5/8" 3 under.  I shoot a MOAB also.  Also had that same wear issue.  Even pulled more with my bottom fingers and did the callous thing until I made some changes.  Many things in common here.  I cannot tell for sure on your bows, but my MOAB has a shelf that slopes away a little from the riser.  I found that would really allow me to shoot that stiff arrow because it would track real nice and consistent on that slope.  Been shooting a 5575 for years on it with that type of wear, but have it shooting real nice now at about 54#@29 with 30 ¼” 3555 and 225-245 up front.

[khardrunner]

I braved the rain and am no closer to resolving the issue. Here are some thoughts from today's session....

1) brace height anywhere above 6-6.5 is terrible. Everything from arrow flight to pull is no good. 5.75-6 seems best.

2) Really high nocking points (above 1/2) are no good. Even worse flight than low points. Seems the best right now is where the arrow sits at around 3/8ths in the center

3) the 45/60 shafts suck.

4) Wood arrows are more forgiving. No matter what I changed or how poor the shot they always flew the best in comparison to both carbons (30/50 and 45/60).

5) I don't know what to do now.

[gringol]

shoot the woodies!   :D  

In all seriousness, I've had the sore ring finger before and it was due to poor form.  That could be part of the problem.  A high elbow will cause you to pull more with the ring-finger (as some other have suspected you're doing) and could give you some of the flight problems.  Tension in the forearm can also cause sore fingers and goofy arrow flight.

Is it possible that the carbon is reacting so quickly to the pressure of the string that it's returning to straight before it passes the riser?  Just a thought....I don't use carbon, but I have noticed strange arrow flight with woodies with the same spine rating but made from different types of wood.  Some react so slowly that you effectively need a much stiffer spine than you'd imagine to get decent arrow flight.

[lpcjon2]

Sell the arrows and the bow, Just kidding. When all else fails blame your release.

[khardrunner]

But why would my release work with the woodies and not the carbons?

As far as shooting the woodies there's another problem... they are too short for broadheads. I have no idea what spine they are so I don't know what to buy to replace them.

As for my ring finger, it was fine today. I may still be grabbing a bit, and I will continue to work on that. You can check out my form a couple of posts up to see if my elbow is high. I don't think it is. I am really focusing on keeping the string hand relaxed as possible while maintaining a good hook on the string. I'm focusing on the middle and pointer fingers.

[lpcjon2]

Wood is forgiving. If you have checked all the things that everyone has mentioned, then I am at a loss as to whats next.

[khardrunner]

I pretty much have. I will continue to work at it though in smaller increments...maybe when it's not raining :-).

It's hard to get it all figured out. There are some guys shooting carbons that are probably 20#'s heavier than what I'm shooting and other shooting 10#'s lighter all out of similar bows. I guess it's like an experiment of one.

[Archie]

I don't shoot carbons, but I understand that they have a different recovery rate, meaning that they flex and re-flex (recover) at a different speed than wood and aluminum.

If I were totally messed up and had to start over, here is what I would do:

1.  Find out the recommended brace height range of the bow from the bowyer, and set it right in the middle, which would give you room to adjust.
2.  Determine what weight broadheads you want to shoot.
3.  Set the nock point a little high.  Get your shafts flying somewhat well but still a little nock-high.  You don't want them to hit the shelf and affect your flight.
4.  Start working with full-length shafts and shoot bare shafts with your desired weight field points until you find a shaft that shows a little weak (nock right for a lefty).
5.  Start shortening that shaft a quarter-inch at a time, then shooting several shots and determining whether the weak spine is being resolved.
6.  Fine-tune the nock height and brace height as needed.  A little nock-high (bareshafting) is OK, and the feathers should clean that up.

If you already tried all this, or know all this stuff, forgive me for being redundant.

[khardrunner]

I've got that, but my resources are limited both in shafts and points. I can't afford to purchase several test kits... wood or carbon....which is why I am working all this through so publicly.

I'm thinking through my options though.

[xtrema312]

Cheapest way to play with carbon is point weight and heavy inserts.

Give 3 under a try once to see what happens. I find I have lot cleaner release that way and can better evaluate arrow tune. Once I get dialed in I can work down the nock height for split and know bad flight is release.

[CoilSpring]

I think your 45/60's are WAY TOO stiff.  The ones I tried acted much much stiffer that expected, even on  a center-cut recurve. Stiff arrow always wear the near side of the riser (for me) and sometimes the shelf too, similar to your wear pattern.

If you haven't, add nock sets above and below the arrow to eliminate the arrow nock sliding up/down upon release (it happens). Then go higher on your nocking point, it seems too low (shelf wear)

Your brace seems way too short - holding the arrow on the string longer will really make it unforgiving of bow grip & string release.  It also weakens the arrow - the reason it shot better for you at lower brace heights.

If you want to make the 45/60's shoot. You'll do best by raising the brace much higher (more forgiving), raise the nock more (more forgiving), and send me your address for some 100 grain brass inserts to weaken your shafts enough to make them shoot.  What field point weights do you have now and need now?

Also, when you're evaluating right/left arrow flight (fish-tailing) relative to changing your spine (by adding/subtracting point weight) or evaluating up/down arrow flight(porpoising) by changing nock set heights, you should always hold the bow vertical to get a proper "read".  Canting the bow at an angle will make a nock-too-high arrow porpoise at the cant angle, making it wobble up and down, but also right & left, due to the angle.  Likewise with a stiff/weak arrow.  

Tune with bow held vertical first, then, if there is a difference in flight of the vertically tuned combo caused by canting the bow, you can fine tune to eliminate the problem.  

Also pm me your email and I'll send you a tuning tuning guide in pdf format.