String breaks = Busted limbs

[Canadian Idle]

A few years back, there was quite a discussion on strings, as far as number of strands, material types, breaking strength etc. We were all quite surprised when some of us did our own testing as far as actual breaking strength ( O L Adcock ) was also involved in this. We all pretty much found that the single strand of D 97 string broke at between 30 to 35 pounds (if I remember correctly). I think the advertised breaking poundage was 50 or 55 pounds. I did several tests on different strands of different colors and they all were pretty close to being the same. So as far as the number of strands in a string, I think it's better to be safe than sorry. Just my 2 cents....Lloyd

[HenrikBP]

Originally posted by LBR:

I don't push the envelope with my personal strings.  I don't use a minimal strand count, and if it's a bow I'm shooting much I'll replace the string every 6 months or so.  You can break down the fibers by using too much tension to pre-stretch.  The reason strings fuzz up is do to the strands breaking down.  It's normal wear and tear.  Less strands, more stress on each strand, more/faster wear and tear[/b]

Thanks Chad, that's a very valid point and good advice. I will no doubt make regular string change a "maintenance" item for my bow.

I'll try to look into strings/string material etc. some more, just for my own education. But I appreciate you taking the time to chime in.

CI: that's interesting, and a bit odd, that the actual breaking strength of these strands are that much lower than advertised. I guess this is not "climbing rope" kinda important, but I've always seen rope breaking strength listed at very "safe" levels. Good to keep in mind when choosing string and string material.

One a very happy note: I spoke to Bob about my bow.  He builds his ILF bows with the limb "pin" or "dovetail" press-fit into the limbs for exactly this reason. If something - like my string - "goes", then the "dovetails" will pull out and minimize damage to limbs and other parts of the bow. If the "dovetails" were to be bolted in place, the limbs might very well have ripped the aluminum pocket out of the riser, causing a lot of expensive damage.

So all I need to do is press the "dovetails" back in the limbs, string it up and go shooting. Note: I have already spent time checking out all the parts for nicks/dings/cracks etc. etc. and everything is straight and undamaged.

Very good news.

[LC]

Glad to hear sounds like your bow survived this.

Did Bob say what kinda of string material he was supplying with his bows and if it was prestretched or was it normal for several weeks to keep twisting it up to make it the right length?

[Cyclic-Rivers]

Glad to hear things are getting fixed.

One thing I would ask since it hasn't been mentioned that I have seen,

What do you hang your bow on??  Is there any burrs or rough spots that could affect the string?

[LC]

I was just thinking, I know serious problem. Every one seems to think 8 strands is too few,everyone seems to think 10 strands are OK. Wonder if two strands would have made a difference? JMHO a few more hundred shots based on the info gave.

I got to be honest here. I've been a skinny string man for years BEFORE it was popular. I used skinny strings with B50 with zero problems!Now we are not talking 8 strand B50 but WELL WELL below what was acceptable and I shoot ALOT.

Same results with HP (high prefromance) skinny strings but with every imaginable improvement one could ever want, more durable,faster, quieter, less hand shock vibration,smoother, etc.  I first tried one HP string material that I thought was junk, lots of folks love it though so wont mention brand. I use that junk for padding my loops now.  My next string was UC. I love this stuff. It took me SEVERAL tries to come up with a length, different from B50, that would end up giving me a string the right length with MINUMAL twists for MY desired brace height or length. Theres my problem with just "ordering" a string for my bow. Imagine the number of folks shooting the same bow using different shooting styles,arrows, fletching, string silencers, different brace heights, etc all ordering the same string but using different number of twists to meet their tuning needs!

I've since learned there is equal or better materials to UC. That could be but with the preformance I've expierenced  coupled with the durablity of it, factor in the amount of spool I have left I doubt I'll be trying something different for a good long time or at the very least several thousand feet.        
BUT when I start seeing a fair amount of FUZZ I don't wax it and think all is well. In fact I never wax a string even back in the B50 ages. I spin me a new endless loop string and be done with it! I don't run my tires too long, I change my furnace filters regularly,change the oil in vehicles,  etc etc! lol You mileage may vary.

[JamesKerr]

I agree with Chad 8 strands is too few. The problem with skinny strings in my opinion is that even when brand new and each strand is in perfect condition you are only a few #100 above your bows acceptable 10:1 tensile strength to draw weight ratio. Now once those strings start to wear or look a little fuzzy  which is fine as long as it's not too much on a 12 stand (or more) string that skinny string is loosing tensile strength fast. And what if the condition comes to pass that a strand or two gets cut while out hunting and you don't have your back up string with you.

Just food for thought.

[HenrikBP]

LC:  Bob and I got talking and I forgot to ask him about the string specifics.  I have another set of limbs on order, so I'll ask next time we talk.

About whether an additional 2 strands would've made a difference;  2 more strands would increase the breaking strength by 25%. If additional strands also make a string stretch less, then maybe the combination of stronger and less stretch would equal less wear and/or less fiber breakage.

interesting that you're a "skinny string man" yourself. Of course since you make your own strings swapping for a new one and tweaking strings to match exactly what you need is a bit easier for you  

Cyclic-Rivers: I did think about the possible issue of hanging a bow. But I don't hang my bow though: I lay it flat on it's side on a shelf that I've padded with a folded bath towel.

I put the dovetails back in the limbs, put the bow together and strung it tonight. Will check everything out again tomorrow and take it for a "test spin".

[LimBender]

Had a string blow at full draw - hurt like hell and broke arrow on my arm and bow, but bow survived.  Glad everything sounds okay.

Think LC is on to something - I was shooting an 8 strand on a 45# bow and it kept stretching - I probably over-twisted and put too much pressure on taper.  

I shoot a 10 UltraCam now - but its only 25% more than 8, but watch string twist and condition more closely.

[HenrikBP]

James: good point about having a bit of "extra" string capacity in case something goes sideways in the field. Although I'd probably be hesitant to shoot a bow if the string had been nicked no matter the strand count   .  I have a string that I've shot for a few weeks for it to settle, with nock points and silencers installed, that I carry with me when I shoot away from home.

[Kelly]

So when it was all done your string was in two pieces? Which would mean all 8 strands had to break cleanly, relatively speaking?

[HenrikBP]

Originally posted by Kelly:
So when it was all done your string was in two pieces? Which would mean all 8 strands had to break cleanly, relatively speaking?

Yes, it was a surprisingly clean break. Less than 1/2" of "fuzzy" end on the string side, and almost none on the loop side of the break.

I asked Bob about the strings, and what I had was an 8-strand D-10 string, pre-stretched by the string maker.

All I can think is that extended use as far as many arrows shot over a good amount of time with a string that dimensionally pushes the envelope - possibly combined with a slight weak spot - caused the string break.

[David Mitchell]

Glad things seem OK with the bow.  I personally am not a fan of skinny strings or pushing the envelope--just not my nature to be an envelope pusher   .  I have tried one by a well known skinny string maker (briefly) and don't feel the risk is worth the benefit. But that's just me I guess.  Heck, I still use dacron on several of my bows and like it just fine. I sort of figure that's what this "traditional archery" thing is all about--doing it the way we used to (I've been at it for about 50 years give or take a few while I was in college and beginning my career).

[HenrikBP]

Thanks David - yes it is a relief that the bow is ok. Shot a bunch yesterday, and it shoots smooth as ever.

I think, as with anything, you can "push" a bit as long as you realize the limitations and considerations. In my case I didn't     Now I know to routinely replace the string on top of the "day-to-day" inspections and maintenance if I decide to stick with a skinny string.

[LC]

Well IMHO if it was prestretched, NOT over stretched to the point of failure, and you had to keep "twisting" it up then something isn't right. Either D10 is not a acceptable string material or something is amuck in the wood pile. Just my opinion. Think about it, myself and several others are using skinny strings without failures and have done so for years. IF the string is made the right length so that when it settles in there is no more stretch, creep what ever you want to call it then there should not be a problem. I do concede if I was a string maker I'd probably make them 30 strand to compenstate for the "real" world to CMA. IF skinny strings didn't work and worth the benefits why do you think so many bowyers use them? Yes I acknowledge BW says no benefit so it has to be true! We all know BW is the bible for other bowyers! lol So are you saying  Bob and alot of the other bowyers who ship bows with skinny strings haven't done their own testing? Food for thought.

[LBR]

LC, something to consider.  I mentioned this before--not sure where (can't remember), but I think it's worth mentioning again.

There were lots of folks very upset when I voiced concerns about B-75 and PENN 66--I was refered to as pretty much everything but smart and honest (on a different site, a long time ago--before TG came into existence).

They all said the same thing--they got much better performance, never had a minutes trouble from it, 'ol-so-and-so (certain bowyers and certain string makers) recommends them, etc.  I have no reason to doubt them, but that didn't change the fact that several bows were damaged/destroyed with their strings blew up without warning...not to mention the underwear that were damaged/destroyed even if the bow survived.    

Just because some folks had great results, it didn't change the fact that others didn't.  Why the varied results?  Your guess is as good as mine.  My guess is the materials were pushing the envelope.  Both materials were taken off the market after a short time.

 

IF skinny strings didn't work and worth the benefits why do you think so many bowyers use them?  

Because it's a selling point, and they have most likely had customers request them.  Red paint won't make a sportscar go faster, but it's a popular color so dealers offer it.  Or,maybe they have done tests, and they have found benefits with their designs?

 

So are you saying Bob and alot of the other bowyers who ship bows with skinny strings haven't done their own testing?

Dare I say it?  I can't speak for Bob in particular, but I know at one point--several years ago--he was using a material that was, IMO, junk.  It was promoted by a string maker who was popular at the time (that string maker has been out of the string business for many years).  The material has been off the market for years, because...well, it was junk--it was made a particular way and there's not been anything similar since, at least to my knowledge.  But, at the time, it was "new and improved", and there was a call for it.

I've seen warranties where, if you used a flemish string, OR a dacron string, the warranty was void.  

I've seen where a bowyer claimed a flemish string was "less accurate, and could be dangerous".  

I've seen a bowyer blame a flemish string for the limb on a brand new longbow twisting.  

I've seen a bowyer reccomend against one type of FF material because it didn't have enough stretch, then recommend a different FF type material that had even LESS stretch (but felt softer in your hand).  

All of these are well known, accomplished bowyers, and some are still in business.

BW isn't the only one who has done controlled tests and found  little to no benefit.  Others have the opinion that the risks outweigh the benefits.  And of course some feel the benefits are worth the risks.

FWIW, in my own very non-technical "tests", I found no real benefits.  Same shafts bare-shafted fine, no noise difference that I could tell as long as I did my part with tuning.  But that's just me--YMMV.  If I'd found any notable benefits, it would only be in my best interests to promote them.  

D10 is an acceptable bowstring material--when used properly.  Actually it's no longer marketed as Dynaflight '10--it's FORCE 10 crossbow string material, and is still popular in that market.  Realistically, it's very close to Dynaflight '97 as far as breaking strength, creep, stretch, and durability.  It's a little stronger--a slightly higher grade of Dyneema (SK78 vs. SK75).  Dynaflight '97 is still a great bowstring material...when used properly.

Anyhow...if you like low strand count strings, by all means use them.  Some of us just haven't seen the same benefits, or it just doesn't matter.  I still shoot selfbows on occassion, so obviously a few extra fps isn't a big deal to me.  Haven't found a bow I couldn't get hunting quiet with silencers and tuning, so nothing to gain there either--for me.

Not meant to be a slam on low strand count strings, anyone who makes them (I do by request--just don't use them), or anyone who uses them.

Finally, there is, IMO, a material on the market that is a compromise.  8190 is a very small strand, so you can get a "skinny" string without pushing the envelope with a very low strand count.  12-16 strands is still a tiny string, but still offers you a little lee-way.

Chad

[LC]

LBR all good points. I just think this whole skinny string thing isn't just black and white like alot of other things in life. It's kinda like  the "Ban ASSUALT weapons" thing going on now adays! There is no simple answer but the human response is blaming one thing, either scary black guns, assault weapsons or skinny strings isn't the anwwer! Makes sense? There's just too many folks  using and enjoying the benefits of "skinny" strings to say it's all bogus. Someday we will all look back and see the in between truth.  All I just want to state is I USE SKINNY STRINGS MADE FROM ULTRA CAM, I SHOOT ALOT AND NOT HAD A SINGLE FAILURE! But I'm sure there are better materials than UC out there.But I custom make my strings so  in the end there is MINUMAL twist for my stings.

Is my own testing with my own homemade bows using skinny strings using choronos all bogus? Who knows, I'm just saying that the newer string materials are stronger and making them with LESS strands works. IF you use sub standard string materials and have to twist them up constantly to keep it the right length you have lost the benefit of the new string PLUS you have weakened it! That's all I'm saying. Your mileage may vary?

[LBR]

I agree--very little in this sport is set in stone, and whether we admit it or not, we have a tendency to confuse "opinion" with "fact".

Some shoot a longbow better.  Some shoot a recurve better.  Wood riser, or metal?  1-piece, 2-piece, 3-piece?  Wood, carbon, or aluminum?  3-fletch or 4-fletch?  Sheild or parabolic?  Chopper or burner?  Etc. etc. etc.  

Which one is the right one?  Easy--the one you like best.    

[LC]

agree--very little in this sport is set in stone, and whether we admit it or not, we have a tendency to confuse "opinion" with "fact".

Some shoot a longbow better. Some shoot a recurve better. Wood riser, or metal? 1-piece, 2-piece, 3-piece? Wood, carbon, or aluminum? 3-fletch or 4-fletch? Sheild or parabolic? Chopper or burner? Etc. etc. etc.

Which one is the right one? Easy--the one you like best.

X 100!

[LC]

I'd also like to add in agreement with LBR there is alot of differences with HP (high preformance)  strings aka Fast Flight string materials and that adds to the confusion and thus sadly the end results. Look at the market in the last few years with all the different kinds of materials hitting the market for string material? Who wouldn't be confused? Back in the day there was ONLY one option for string material B50 or maybe linen or sinew.If the 18 strand did't fit just TWIST it up! But now in the modern world all you can do is, like always buyer beware.

For the record I was using 10 strand B50 endless on 50lb plus bows with just enough serving on end loops to not touch the limb. Just enough center serving to cover my tab area. Just enough silencer material to take out the twang. The difference in preformance in speed cast etc was awesome and NEVER HAD A SINGLE FAILURE. The amount of weight of the string and silencer materials have a HUGE impact on preformance,arrow tuning,etc. Coupled with nock fit you can add alot of preformance to a bow you never knew existed. When I ran out of B50 I thought what the heck I'll try this new Schmit string!lol Like I said earlier the first HP string I bought SUCKED! However the next string material I bought UC proved that all the past benefits I saw with skinny B50 was amplified with the UC ten fold. I've never looked back.
All I'm saying is skinny strings have a place in the modern tradtional world and only time will tell where that place is. Just don't make your decision on bad intel or worse yet wives tales!

For the record I DON'T RECOMMEND anyone shooting B50 using less than standard string count. I make my own bows and strings (don't sell to anyone) and thus the warranty and responsiblity lies just with me.

[HenrikBP]

I can't add much to the conversation at this point, but I appreciate all the information you all put out there.