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Author Topic: Advice from woody experts  (Read 676 times)

Offline Starkman

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Advice from woody experts
« on: August 22, 2007, 06:56:00 PM »
I've been making my own wood arrows for the past few months using the advice from the Tradgang and Conrad's Traditional Bowhunter's Manual.  Some of you may know that I recently had an accident from and arrow that blew-up.  Looking back at the situation, I'm surprised I missed the crack, if it was indeed a crack.  But, I should have inspected the arrow better and flexed the shaft.

Anyhow, last night I was working on some arrows and noticed some strange, very light, horizontal cracks (against the grain) on one of the shafts.  When I applied pressure to the shaft to straighten it, it broke.  

I don't have anyone I know locally to mentor me in arrow making, so I was wondering if I sent some shafts to an "expert" if they would critique (grading, tapers etc) my arrows (maybe 6-12) for me.  I would number them and give a brief evaluation of each.  What I may be considering a good arrow, may in fact not be and what I may consider poor, may actually be a good squirrel or target arrow.  I would of course pay shipping.
Thanks,
Bob
"You're never beaten until you admit it." - General George S. Patton, Jr

Offline hockeyref

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Re: Advice from woody experts
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2007, 07:20:00 PM »
Starkman,
Are you concerned about the quality of the wood, or your workmanship? A lot can be accomplished by emailing some good quality pictures....
Steve Uhall

Offline Fletcher

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Re: Advice from woody experts
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2007, 07:57:00 PM »
What you describe Bob, sounds like a chrysal.  It is a compression "crushing" of the wood fibers that runs perpendicular to the length of the shaft, and yes, the shaft will break there quite easily.  This same thing is also found sometimes on the belly side of selfbows.

As Steve said, good pics can go a long way toward gathering feedback and can greatly expand your list of "mentors".  I would recommend working on learning to make GOOD arrows before worrying about the fancy part.  TJ's book is very good and I have  3RA and Paul Brunner arrow making videos that I can loan if you'd like.  As my alias indicates, I make a few arrows and would be happy to help with my insight and thoughts.  Rick
Good judgement comes from experience.  Experience comes from bad judgement.

"The next best thing to playing and winning is playing and losing."

"An archer doesn't have to be a bowhunter, but a bowhunter should be an archer."

Offline Starkman

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Re: Advice from woody experts
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2007, 10:07:00 PM »
Steve,
Unfortunately the digital camera isn't functioning (lens sticks) and most be sent in for repairs.  I'm actually concerned about both.  Aside from the illustrations, I'm not sure what a quality shaft is.

Rick, I've noticed several of these anomalies and wondered how it may affect the shaft.  I've noticed on a few shafts, that there is a light rift (looks like one) that ran perpendicular  to the grain.  Do the videos you mention address quality issues?  If I can't get things figured out, I may take you up on your very generous offer.

Thanks,
Bob
"You're never beaten until you admit it." - General George S. Patton, Jr

Offline SCATTERSHOT

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Re: Advice from woody experts
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2007, 11:04:00 AM »
If that was one of the shafts you were bareshaft testing, it may have developed that crack when it flexed severely going into the target. it's another accident waiting to happen, so I wouldn't shoot it.

Just for the record, what are you shooting? Draw weight, type of bow, draw length, and spine of the shafts you are testing?

O.L. Adcock has a great article on his website about bareshaft tuning and selecting the proper shaft.

Good luck!
"Experience is a series of non - fatal mistakes."

Offline Starkman

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Re: Advice from woody experts
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2007, 01:16:00 PM »
Eugene,
Those marks were on raw shafts.  I'm shooting a Dwyer Original, 64" 51#@27" (at my draw length), Fast flight string, shafts (spruce) are spined at 60-64# and cut to 28.5" and 160 gr. tips.  I've referenced O.L.'s site often and thought these should be in the ballpark, but wondering now if maybe I wasn't careful in grading the shafts.

I used 50-55# shafts, 28.5" 125 gr. tip for my 43# Dwyer Original and got excellent results.

Bob
"You're never beaten until you admit it." - General George S. Patton, Jr

Offline SCATTERSHOT

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Re: Advice from woody experts
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2007, 01:33:00 PM »
Sure sounds like a good match to me. Could the shaft marks you describe be dowelling marks? I have seen some shafts lately that hadn't been sanded properly, and the dowelling process left some spiral marks on the shaft.
"Experience is a series of non - fatal mistakes."

Offline flint kemper

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Re: Advice from woody experts
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2007, 06:42:00 PM »
Bob, hate to toot Fletchers horn but he is my mentor for building arrows. He has quite a few accomplishments under his belt in the fletching department, and his dozen arrows at last years UBI banquet went for an exorbirant(sp) amount even he couldn't believe. He has told me alot don't woory about the looks get the good basics down first. The deer don't care how pretty it is. Hopefully in about 2 weeks Rick will be arrowing one of those Newfoundland moose with his ramins. Flint

Offline aromakr

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Re: Advice from woody experts
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2007, 08:01:00 PM »
Bob:
There is a condition you find in all wood that Bill Sweetland use to call "Nutrient grain" I don't think that is the correct term, however when a shaft is properly made, the bolt (section of tree) is split instead of being sawn. If nutrient grain is present it will not split straight thru lengthwise. If the bolt is sawn you never know its present until you get the doweled shaft in your hand, and sometimes not until you put finish or stain on the shaft. The grain will appear to swirl in a very small section. If you bend the shaft holding at each end it will break right at that swirl. Unfortunatly today shafting is not made that way, because splitting the bolt produces lots of firewood and regardless of what the major POC producer says, POC is NOT plentyful. In the old days POC came out of the woods as the result of timber harvesting. The dead and down trees would be discovered while other species of wood were cut for lumber. And the shaft manufactures knew the yard bosses well, they would let them know when a good log was found. As you know the lumber industry is almost at a stand still and the shaft makers today have to rely on people that scroung the woods for POC. As long as the consumer will continue to purchase junk thats what you will get, oh I'm not saying its all junk but its not all good either.

If you would like to learn alittle more about what a quality shaft is get yourself a copy of a book "From the Den of the Old Bowhunter" Its a reprint of stories by Chester Stevenson who was know as the old bowhunter. he describes what he and his friends did to make shafting in the 20' thru the 50's. If nothing else its a great read. I think all the major suppliers carry it.
Bob
Man must "believe" in something!  I "believe" I will go hunting-----

Offline Fletcher

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Re: Advice from woody experts
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2007, 10:15:00 PM »
I haven't watched either video in a long time, but I think one of them goes into selecting shafts.  If you want to borrow them PM your address soon as come Monday I'll be in the wind for a couple of weeks.
Good judgement comes from experience.  Experience comes from bad judgement.

"The next best thing to playing and winning is playing and losing."

"An archer doesn't have to be a bowhunter, but a bowhunter should be an archer."

Offline Aeronut

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Re: Advice from woody experts
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2007, 10:32:00 PM »
I flex each shaft three to four times in different directions before I spine test them.  My daughter's boyfriend asked one time why I flexed them and then the next shaft snapped easily as I explained why.  It was chrysalled in several spots and was easy to point out to him.  There were several in that batch that didn't break but just didn't feel right and all of those reside in the firewood barrel now.

Dennis

Offline Starkman

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Re: Advice from woody experts
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2007, 10:55:00 PM »
Fellas, lots of good advice.
Part of the problem is I'm not sure how to recognize a chrysal or not. I'm also wondering if I may have possibly caused some compression cracks, weakened the shaft while straightening them....maybe I put too much pressure on the bend.  I wish the digital camera was working to show you some of these suspicious areas.  Anyone have any pics of acceptable,poor grain run, a chrysal  etc.  ?  Interestingly, before the accident, I didn't cull any arrows as I thought they were all good shafts (4 doz).  Now I see myself going back over them carefully...I'm a bit paranoid now.

Rick, PM sent..thanks.  

Bob
"You're never beaten until you admit it." - General George S. Patton, Jr

Offline Dave Bulla

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Re: Advice from woody experts
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2007, 12:49:00 AM »
I agree with the guys who suspect doweling marks or grain runout.  I haven't read the books mentioned other than the Chet Stevenson book (GREAT read by the way) so I don't know if I'll repeat common knowledge but I'll try to give you a rundown of some things I look for.

You said the shafts were spruce but not what kind.  I expect they are probably sitka spruce as that is the most common spruce wood used and is a very strong wood for it's weight.  In fact, they used to use it the old wooden airplanes for that reason.  Unfortunately, though I've made a bunch of wooden arrows, I've never used spruce.  

I have seen many shafts though that had what I call "tear outs" that are usually a result of either a dull router bit, a small knot or a deviation in the grain possibly caused by a bend in the trunk or a knot that was near enough to distort the grain but got weeded out of the arrow process.  This falls back to what aromakr said about shafts being cut from the log instead of split.  A saw blade doesn't follow the grain so when a stick is turned down to a dowel, the grain doesn't always follow the shaft... I suspect even a sharp bit can cause tearout if the grain zigs or zags in the shaft.  Usually it looks like a sort of rough area and is often the cause of a distinct kink in the shaft caused by distortion during drying.  These defects seem to show up least on good quality cedar shafts which is what I use most of the time.  The worst I've ever used was some chundoo but I know many others who've had great luck with it.

When I get a new batch of shafts, I sort first by natural straightness.  I expect about 3 to 6 out of a dozen cedars to be real straight right out of the box.  That's broadhead quality, spin perfect with no adjustment or must a minor tweek.  So it goes without saying that something to look for in the raw shaft is that it is naturally straight.  These are the shafts that "want to stay straight" and so don't tend to warp in your quiver.  Put these "good ones" in a pile by themselves.  

If a shaft is not straight when you get it, it should not have multiple bends or bends that look more like kinks.  A shaft with a full length gentle curve can look pretty bad but will usually straighten more easily than one with multiple bends or a kink.  Go through all your shafts and make a pile out of the ones that weren't straight when you got them but straightened easily.  These are your #2's for now.  

Any shaft that has a rough spot, resin spot or other surface defect should be examined closely for grain direction in that area.  A rough spot not associated with bad grain can usually be smoothed and ignored.  A distinct squiggle will usually mean a weak spot as will hard grain run out.  These will become your rabbit arrows, flu-flus or stumpers.  

Now, after you've straightened them all to the best of your ability, store them on a flat surface like the floor.  I stick mine under the sofa in the den.  In a couple of days, pull them out and recheck them for straightness.  The TV makes a great backdrop for sighting down the shaft especially on a "blue screen" like when a DVD is stopped.  The good #1's will likely still be good.  If not, regrade accordingly.  Now the good news...Several of the #2's will probably be as good as the #1's so upgrade them.  Occasionally, even one of the multiple bend junkers will make it all the way into the #1 pile but don't count on it.  It will likely take 3 to 5 straightenings to make a bad arrow that good...  I usually go through this process several times over a couple weeks unless it's crunch time and I need arrows yesterday.  It sure is best to plan ahead though...

One other arrow type to avoid like the plague is what I call "the noodle".  I don't know what the heck causes it but some arrows are just kinda limp.  Most shafts you buy will be resilient in feel to bending as straightening.  That is, you have to over flex it to get it to spring back to straight.  A "noodle" though.... when you bend it in any given direction, it just about stays right there.  It's like bending a lead rod.  I just flat throw these away.  I've seen them in cedar, chundoo, maple and others and they are all bad juju.

By the way, I seldom use heat, a hook or any other form of pressure.  If I can't get it straight just by hand I usually break it and move on.  Them chundoos I mentioned were an exception.  They needed both heat and pressure.

So, if you can go through this process and come up with 8 to 10 shafts out of dozen that are #1 or close to it you are doing well.

As for breakage, the only other thing is to be sure and orient your grain perpendicular to the string and if a shaft has gradual runout of the grain, try to put it running uphill as it points away from you.  That way, if a shaft splits, it will be directed mostly away from your hand.

Sorry this is so long but It's an old bad habbit of mine to get "wordy" when I'm describing a process.....

One last thing...

The best way I've found to test the straightness of a shaft is to hold it horizontally near one end between my thumb and first or middle finger.  Then I sort of lift the front and at the same time give the shaft a sharp spin with my fingers.  The shaft spins very fast and any bend at all causes it to sort of buzz in your fingers which should stay in contact with the shaft but not hold it.  You can even hear it.  A perfect shaft just goes SSSSSSSSSSSSS faintly but a shaft with even a tiny bend will drum off your fingertips and sort of BUZZZZZZZZ as it rotates.  

It's hard to describe but when you try it you will figure it out.

Hope this helps a little at least.
Dave


I've come to believe that the keys to shooting well for me are good form, trusting the bow to do all the work, and having the confidence in the bow and myself to remain motionless and relaxed at release until the arrow hits the mark.

Offline Starkman

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Re: Advice from woody experts
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2007, 02:10:00 PM »
Dave,
Not wordy at all...very useful information.  This is the stuff you usually don't find in books.  And I know exactly what you mean by the SSSSSSSSSSSSS sound.
Thanks,
Bob
"You're never beaten until you admit it." - General George S. Patton, Jr

Offline aromakr

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Re: Advice from woody experts
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2007, 03:10:00 PM »
I agree with most of what Dave has said, however he is basing all of his conclusions on POC shafts. All wood is not the same, if POC has any advantage is its moisture is an OIL. Other arrow wood species the moisture is H2o (water). and we all no what happens to wood of that type when it dries it will "warp" so don't judge a shaft's quality by its straightness. You can have some excellent quality shafts that are less than straight. Besides one thing a good arrow maker MUST learn to do is straighten a shaft, which is not as difficult to do as many say it is. Use a little dry heat (electric stove, hot plate, or heat gun) they will straighten quickly and you have less chance of rupturing the cell structure that way.
Bob
Man must "believe" in something!  I "believe" I will go hunting-----

Offline Dave Bulla

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Re: Advice from woody experts
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2007, 11:34:00 AM »
Aromakr,

That is interesting about the moisture in POC being oil.  I didn't know that.  Does cedar attract moisture out of the air?  I mean, if a supplier is out west in a dry climate and sends me shafts here in Missouri, do they need to acclimate to my moisture levels?

You are also mostly correct in that I am talking MOSTLY from experience with POC shafts.  I have however tried pine, maple, hickory, birch, poplar and hardware store mystery wood dowels.  I was a big fan of maple for a while but after trying cedar again I realized I liked the way they flew better and also decided they were less work to build.  That maple was incredibly tough stuff though.  Hickory too.

Besides, cedar smells gooooood!
Dave


I've come to believe that the keys to shooting well for me are good form, trusting the bow to do all the work, and having the confidence in the bow and myself to remain motionless and relaxed at release until the arrow hits the mark.

Offline aromakr

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Re: Advice from woody experts
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2007, 09:14:00 PM »
Dave:
99.9% of all the cedar shafting comes from dead and down trees, there is no need to acclimate them. About the different species of wood you mentioned POV,pine and Poplar are of the soft wood varity the others are hardwoods. The soft woods will respond to paradox faster than the hardwood types.
Bob
Man must "believe" in something!  I "believe" I will go hunting-----

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