Tuning Question?

[JamesKerr]

Okay guys I have always used O.L. Adcock's method of bareshaft planing to do my tuning. From what I have always read the angle the bareshaft flies or sticks in the target is irrelevant as long as it groups in the same area as you fletched arrows. This has worked fine for me for most of my bows and arrow combo's. I recently saw some video footage though of Ken Beck and Toby Essick shooting bare shafts along with their fletched arrows and not only did their bareshafts group with the fletched arrows but they flew just about as straight as a lot of people would like to get from fletched arrows. My question is I can not for the life of me seem to get a bare shaft to fly straight. No matter what spine arrow, point weight, or length, they always hit nock right. (I am a right handed shooter). I have shot arrows that should be 10#-15# underspined up to the same amount overspined. I don't think it is my form because I have good alignment when I compare myself to Terry's Clock picture and I almost always get a clean release with my string hand ending up back by my ear. I would just like to know what these guys are apparently doing differently than I am.

[BearCrkBandit]

That's very interesting, I've always had it work just like it should...shoot, trim, repeat, till they stick straight out AND hit where my fletched arrows do. It could have something to do with the bow, I know my arrows tune differently on the same bow when I'm using an elevated rest, than when I'm shooting off of the shelf (nocking point adjusted. I couldn't find arrows stiff enough to spine in my newest recurve, so I had to go with the heaviest I could get, then use a plunger rest and adjust it to compensate, then my bare shafts flew straight.

[Jeff Mundy]

I don't try to get bare shafts to shoot straight because I don't hunt with bare shafts! It seems like a recipe for frustration. Fletch'em up & put a broadhead on... when you get those tuned put your field tips on & you're good.

[NBK]

For me, it's always a release thing, or I'm getting tired and my draw is collapsing.  If I'm shooting well, the bareshaft shows it and like Ken Beck use it as a gauge of my form periodically.  If you think everything else is good I'd look at your finger pressure on the string, primarily torquing the string.

[BearCrkBandit]

Sometimes it IS a recipe for frustration...but I think it's very important. For a couple years, I shot without bareshaft tuning, and got away with it, but I found it much more frustrating dealing with the inconsistency and sensitivity of the shot. You can get an improperly arrow to fly seemingly well with fletching because it corrects the flight somewhat (obviously). However, even with feathers, an improperly tuned arrow has much less forgiveness when it comes to release errors, where it might be a foot off instead of a few inches.

[JamesKerr]

I understand that but my question was is it really that important that the bare shaft flies straight or that it hits and groups with your fletched arrows. Obviously the best thing is to have them group together with good bareshaft flight.

[Prairie Drifter]

To me, if the bareshafts don't fly straight, it's not tuned.

[daniel boon]

What Prairie Drifter said. Your bare shaft may group with your arrows at 20m or so, even when it does not fly straight, but try it at 40-50m, and unless its properly tuned (and flies straight), you'll probably miss the target altogether.

[BearCrkBandit]

Yeah, that's what I tried to imply..those guys are right, till its flying straight, it's not tuned

[gonefishing600]

Hey JamesKerr

Hope thing are well in your camp tonight! I have read your post several times, and feel like this is a problem that can be easily solved, with a little logic, and a few fundamentals principles. Let’s break thing down piece by piece, or sentence by sentence.

Your first sentence was: Okay guys I have always used O.L. Adcock's method of bareshaft planing to do my tuning.

Question: What has happened? Why doesn't this method no longer work for you?

From what I have always read the angle the bareshaft flies or sticks in the target is irrelevant as long as it groups in the same area as your fletched arrows.

My opinion: The angle of the shaft doesn't matter after it hits the target, but does matter after the arrow is released, and is in flight: Remember those fundamentals I mentioned in the first paragraph?  For a right hand shooter when that arrow is released,  if the nock flies to the right that means a stiff shaft, if the nock flies to the left it means a weak shaft. This is not my opinion, this is fact, it’s a fundamental principal, like stepping off a cliff, you fall down, you go dead.

This has worked fine for me for most of my bows and arrow combo's.

Question: Explain what has changed.

I recently saw some video footage though of Ken Beck and Toby Essick shooting bare shafts along with their fletched arrows and not only did their bareshafts group with the fletched arrows but they flew just about as straight as a lot of people would like to get from fletched arrows.

Question: Have you consulted Ken and Toby for advice about your problem? If so, what advice did they offer?

My question is I can not for the life of me seem to get a bare shaft to fly straight. No matter what spine arrow, point weight, or length, they always hit nock right. (I am a right handed shooter).

Advice: Referrer back to your first comment! Explain what has changed!
Did you get a new bow?
New Shafts?
 
I have shot arrows that should be 10#-15# underspined up to the same amount overspined.

Question: What type of shafts are you shooting?
Carbon, aluminum, wood?

I don't think it is my form because I have good alignment when I compare myself to Terry's Clock picture and I almost always get a clean release with my string hand ending up back by my ear.

Comment: You don’t THINK?
When tuning bare shaft, you must know that you know that you know you are getting a clean release. If in doubt, practice, practice, practice. Try and post some video on the shooting forum, and get Mobow, and McDave involved.

I would just like to know what these guys are apparently doing differently than I am.

Comment: No offence, but from this comment it sounds like to me, that you are lacking a few fundamental skill, that could easily solve this problem.

Advice: You need to study the archers paradox, reread O.L. Adcock's method of bareshaft planning. I too learn this method from O.L. Adcock and found it very helpful once I understood the archers paradox.

Good luck, and this is just my opinion, I could be wrong!

[JamesKerr]

I have talked with Toby and he said they (at Black Widow) like to get their bare shafts flying straight. I can get a wide variety of spined shafts to group with my fletched arrows just by playing with point weight and length. My bareshafts are always stuck in the target nock right though, and for the most part fly that way. I get great flight from my arrows and broadheads even when I completely wet the fletchings. This is not something I feel I absolutely need to be able to do because what I am doing now works for me. I am just ocd about always perfecting things. I know I have good alignment and like I said 90% of the time I get a clean release but every once in a while I do pluck the string. I know that is my error when I do that. I am mainly shooting carbon shafts but have in the past shot wood and aluminum as well.

[gonefishing600]

I have talked with Toby and he said they (at Black Widow) like to get their bare shafts flying straight.

My opinion: Ok, great. So you have a Black Widow, and Toby and Keith are from Black Widow. Is this a new bow, and are you trying to tune old or new shafts to this bow for the first time?  

I can get a wide variety of spined shafts to group with my fletched arrows just by playing with point weight and length.

My opinion: Try to narrow down one tip weight, one shaft length, and one spine weight. Once you find a base line you can adjust from there. Tip to light, shorten shaft. Shaft to short, move to stiffer shaft.

My bareshafts are always stuck in the target nock right though, and for the most part fly that way.

My opinion: Go back to my first post, re-read. Here is the science!
For a right hand shooter, If the arrow consistently impacts to the left of the point of aim, that means you have a stiff arrow. Therefore, if the nock is flying to the right, the point is flying to the left, and will impact to the left and again you have a stiff shaft, and visa-versa if the nock is flying to the left.  

I get great flight from my arrows and broadheads even when I completely wet the fletchings. This is not something I feel I absolutely need to be able to do because what I am doing now works for me.

My opinion: Well, you lost me on this one. If you are getting great arrow flight from broadheads, which by the way according to OL Adcock is the final test then what are we doing here?

I am just ocd about always perfecting things.

My opinion: What does ocd mean?

I know I have good alignment and like I said 90% of the time I get a clean release but every once in a while I do pluck the string.

My opinion: Your wearing me out!

I know that is my error when I do that. I am mainly shooting carbon shafts but have in the past shot wood and aluminum as well.

My opinion: Stick with one shaft, and one shaft only until you can tune your shafts with one eye tied behind your back.

Hope this helps!

This my opinion, I’m probably wrong.

[JamesKerr]

I reread O.L.'s article just now and let me clarify. My bare shafts group with my fletched arrows when I have the right point weight on them which by the way is 320 grains for the bow I am tuning them to right now. So according to O.L.'s method I am in tune because the angle the shaft is sticking in the target does not matter. When I say my bareshafts always impact nock right that does not seem to matter whether I am underspined or overspined based on where they are grouping in relation to fletched arrows they always impact nock right even when grouping together. I am just trying to see if there is something in O.L.'s tuning method I have missed that is all nothing more.

[Easykeeper]

If your bare shafts are grouping with your fletched shafts at 25-30 yards I wouldn't worry too much about a little angle.  Ideally when you get it right the bare shafts should be sticking in the target at the same angle as the fletched but a lot depends on the distance.

I would try moving back a bit.  You don't say how far you are from the target but I've found in a situation like you describe when I back up another 5-10 yard the bare shaft starts to plane away from the fletched shafts.  In other words you might be close but not perfect...on the other hand you might be close   enough.  Shooting bare shafts is touchy, that's why it makes such a good tuning technique.  You do need to know when to say good enough is good enough...  

[Caughtandhobble]

You may want to try a couple of things... Try shooting several bare shafts. Compare the bare shaft group. I have seen people that use a feather on the nose as an anchor actually have a hard time bare shaft tuning, with that one but very important factor being gone... Also I like to paper tune if a certain setup is giving me fits. Good luck and keep us posted.

[JamesKerr]

I went out last night and shot another one of my bows with some new arrows and got the bareshafts flying perfect. I then only had to make a very small nock point adjustment to get the bareshaft to group with my fletched arrows and the bareshafts are flying straight. I looked up the spine on the arrows I was trying to tune to my 55# longbow and found out they are a little bit heavier in spine than what I thought so that explains why they wouldn't fly straight of that bow.