Hill style bow speed tests

[LongStick64]

Didn't want to hijack the thread PAMIKE has on his testing but I thought it could be fun to see how the notoriously so thought slow bows really perform. One problem I don't have a Chrono. But I would love to see a comparison between Hill bows like HHA, Shrew Hill, Northern Mist Classic etc. So if anyone has a chance to test them it would be interesting I think.

[ScouterMike]

I have tested several Hill style that I own or have owned. I prefer 10 - 11gpp but have tried them with lighter arrows -  all with B50 string -  the string follow Northern Mist Sheltons and Miller are both at 167 at 10gpp or 175 at 9gpp. My straight limb Hills vary from 166 to 169 at 10gpp (174 - 177 at 9gpp). The Northern Mist Classic I had was 171 at  10gpp and was the fastest straight limb deep core bow I have tested. I have a Northern Mist Whisper reverse handle that is 165 at 10gpp. There really is not much difference between them and I cannot notice a speed difference between them in the field

You can get maybe 2-4 more fps with a lightweight string, with the heavier limbs of these bows the lighter strings have less of an effect than with lighter limbed recuves etc.

From professional published results at 9pp the r/d longbows are usually in the low 180s, recurves in the mid to high 180s and the fastest radical r/d and recurves just over 190 with normal fast flight strings. So with a Hill style at 9gpp you are giving up at most 6-8 fps over the r/d longbow and 12-15 fps to the fastest bows. With heavier arrows the difference will be a little less.

[Goshawkin]

What were the draw weights and draw lengths of the bows you tested? Bow lengths also?

[ScouterMike]

The draw length is always right at 29 and I check the draw weight with a scale at that draw length and of course weigh the arrows. I program and crunch data for a living so this testing is fun stuff to me. Some of this is from memory, my detailed notes are not available right now..

NM Classic 68in 57@29 elm limbs
NM Shelton 66in 51@29 bamboo
NM Shelton 68in 57@29 elm
NM Whisper 66in 53@29 bamboo
NM Whisper 64in 57@29 ash
NM Shelton 68in 46@29 bamboo/cherry
Miller Old Tom 68in 49@29 bamboo
Miller Old Tom 66in 56@29 bamboo
Hill Big 5 68in 51@29 bamboo
Hill Half Breed 68in 54@29 bamboo/yew
Hill Wesley 66in 56@29 bamboo
Hill Redman 66in 47@29 yew
Hill Cheetah 68in 46@29 bamboo/juniper
Hill Crocodile 68in 46@29 osage

As a note, details are important when trying to test a bow and compare with others and when I manage do it right the results will be very close to published results from pro tests. I have yet to see a bow perform good or bad much outside of its design. When one seems to there is something wrong with the numbers. For example of the bows above only the Millers and one Shelton measure draw weight as marked on bow. The Hills are all higher and the NMs lower so you have to measure at the draw you are shooting when testing.

[Bjorn]

I have a Hill style bow with yew lams made by a well respected bowyer it is 20 FPS slower than my ACS CX shooting 13 gpp. This takes nothing away from the bow-different design and different materials. In my mind the Hill bow is a joy to shoot and with the heavy arrows it is shock free.

[Hud]

If you have a copy of Dan Bertalan's, Traditional Bowyers Encyclopedia. They test many bows (pre-FF). Interesting reading.

[Daddy Bear]

66-inch Hill Cheetah hunting bow w/ xtra bamboo lam and backset limbs.  My specs are 67.5# @ 27.5” w/ approx 9.5gpp 640gr+ clocking on the chrono 183 fps with 14strand B-50 which is pretty typical of Hills being 115 plus bow weight.  The numbers on the ballistic calculator work out as such:
Out the gate my Hill is running 183 fps with 47ft-lbs KE and .517lb-sec Momentum. At 30 yards my Hill is running 172 fps with 42ft-lbs KE and .493lb-sec Momentum with a - 50“ drop. At 80 yards my Hill is holding 37ft-lbs KE and .459lb-sec Momentum.  She is my favorite.
 

[Nativestranger]

Originally posted by ScouterMike:
The draw length is always right at 29 and I check the draw weight with a scale at that draw length and of course weigh the arrows. I program and crunch data for a living so this testing is fun stuff to me. Some of this is from memory, my detailed notes are not available right now..

NM Classic 68in 57@29 elm limbs
NM Shelton 66in 51@29 bamboo
NM Shelton 68in 57@29 elm
NM Whisper 66in 53@29 bamboo
NM Whisper 64in 57@29 Ash
NM Shelton 68in 46@29 bamboo/cherry
Miller Old Tom 68in 49@29 bamboo
Miller Old Tom 66in 56@29 bamboo
Hill Big 5 68in 51@29 bamboo
Hill Half Breed 68in 54@29 bamboo/yew
Hill Wesley 66in 56@29 bamboo
Hill Redman 66in 47@29 yew
Hill Cheetah 68in 46@29 bamboo/juniper
Hill Crocodile 68in 46@29 osage

As a note, details are important when trying to test a bow and compare with others and when I manage do it right the results will be very close to published results from pro tests. I have yet to see a bow perform good or bad much outside of its design. When one seems to there is something wrong with the numbers. For example of the bows above only the Millers and one Shelton measure draw weight as marked on bow. The Hills are all higher and the NMs lower so you have to measure at the draw you are shooting when testing.

Impressive collection there. Do you notice much difference in smoothness or handshock between bamboo limbs vs yew, red elm, ash or other wood limbs in the same bow design?

[Tajue17]

also what difference does anyone see between limb designs, so reflex only vs Straight vs String follow?

[ScouterMike]

Originally posted by Daddy Bear:
66-inch Hill Cheetah hunting bow w/ xtra bamboo lam and backset limbs.  My specs are 67.5# @ 27.5” w/ approx 9.5gpp 640gr+ clocking on the chrono 183 fps with 14strand B-50 which is pretty typical of Hills being 115 plus bow weight.  The numbers on the ballistic calculator work out as such:
 

This is quite a bit faster than any Hill style I have tested, as fast as modern recurves.

The 115 plus bow weight thing is interesting. This rule came about when the main arrow choice was wood especially POC. A typical POC arrow (28in , 125 gr point) spined at 50lbs weighs in at about 500gr so and out of a 50lb bow it is 10gpp and by the formula 115 + 50 = 165 minimum which is right where they test. For heavier weight bows the heavier spined wood arrows will weigh a little more but do not keep up with bow weight so the "gpp" decreases and the velocity increases.

I really like the elm limbs on these style bows. The fastest I tested was a backset NM Classic with elm limbs. My favorite shooter is a NM Shelton with elm limbs. Elm seems to compete well with bamboo in all categories, at least the elm Steve Turay uses. Osage and yew are slightly slower and Osage especially seems to have a little more thump. I have only owned/shot one Osage Hill though.

One point though - as far as I can tell with an apples to apples comparison between these bows there has only been about 5fps differnce between all whether backset or string follow or reverse handle or limb material.

I recently got a Hill which has glass on the back only, banboo limbs and a good bit of deflex (string follow) and it is much slower (152 at 10gpp) but it is a different design.

[Daddy Bear]

Originally posted by Tajue17:
also what difference does anyone see between limb designs, so reflex only vs Straight vs String follow?

I go by the old rule of draw length to determine a standard Hill bow length.  I then choose a limb profile, String Follow, Straight, or Back-Set, based on the end use of the bow.  To my understanding, Hill had a preference for a specific Back-Set profile for use in a hunting bow, and he had a preference for a specific String Follow profile for a target bow. I do believe that Craig Ekin ( Howard Hill Archery) uses Hill's Back-Set as standard for hunting longbows unless you request different. Not sure the ratio, but I'd think the majority of his bows are built with the back-set. When you add the option of a reverse handle, you can markedly alter the overall characteristics of a Hill bow by use of the different combinations.

My draw length of 27-1/2 inches calls for a standard PB&J length of around 68-inches. If I were striving to maximize forgiveness for use as a target bow, I'd probably opt for a string follow the next size up in length than standard for my measured draw. If I were striving to maximize performance for use as a hunting bow, I'd probably opt for a back-set the next size down in length than standard for my measured draw. If I were striving for a cross purpose all 'rounder, I'd probably opt for a straight limb of standard PB&J length for my measured draw.


When comparing my target bow, one size longer in length over standard with string follow limbs, to my hunting bow,  one size shorter in length than standard with back-set limbs, the differences in handling characteristics,  forgiveness, and speed are more pronounced, in my opinion.  My shorter hunting bow is quicker, my longer target bow has more stability.