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Author Topic: understanding reflex/deflex  (Read 1218 times)

Offline snowplow

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understanding reflex/deflex
« on: December 30, 2014, 04:49:00 PM »
A typical reflex deflex longbow has a limb that flows back from the handle (deflex) before it flows forward (reflex)

It is my understanding that in general the increased efficiency comes from  reflex of the limb tips.

So how does a reflex deflex as described above compare to just a reflex bow? (I have seen hill bows like this) It doesn't seem to me to be essential to moving the handle forward.

So what does the deflex do?

Offline meatCKR

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Re: understanding reflex/deflex
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2014, 11:10:00 PM »
It's my understanding that a deflexed handle is more stable and less prone to torque.  Think of holding a horseshoe by the U bend. First hold it straight out in front of you with the ends pointing away from you. Now grab one of the ends and try to move it.  It's fairly easy to move the horseshoe. Now flip the horseshoe around and hold it with the ends facing you. Now grab one of the ends and try to move the horseshoe. Much harder to do so. Holding the horseshoe by the U bend with the ends pointing towards you is an extreme example of a deflexed handle but the same principle applies.
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Offline snowplow

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Re: understanding reflex/deflex
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2014, 11:57:00 PM »
Im with you on that, but l did not think a r/d bow always has a more forward handle than just a reflex bow. Maybe lm off on that?

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Re: understanding reflex/deflex
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2014, 09:53:00 AM »
If one would take the same basic limb dimensions and only adjust them for poundage and compare them, on average a slight R/D like a Robertson or a Northern Mist Superior or Baraga or a Tolke, would have less hand shock and more arrow speed. Some R/D bows have more of a forward grip than others.  To get a Hill style reflex to have less shock, it takes some refined tillering and strategic lamination planning with more length. Even though both bows may bend to a 'D' the mechanics of the preload are not the same and the string angles will be less per inch of bow length in the R/D quite often. Not all Hill style bows are slower and not all R/D bows are faster. Just like a forward handle in a reflex ASL does not guarantee that it will be slower than a standard gripped ASL, there are differences in slight R/D that will cross the lines of expectations.  As far as shooting qualities go, I own both I keep the bows that work best for me the benefits of one over the other is barely obvious. I will say for most the differences will be more in the grips, (some folks shoot better with the flat sided grips and some shoot better with more shape in the grip) and possibly (depending on your form and the bow) hand shock, but I would bet on average the R/D will still have more arrow speed. My Robertsons have about half to two thirds of what I would call a forward grip, my Morningstar is a full forward grip and my other ASLs have standard grips. What does the forward handle do? My Hill bows seem fairly forgiving even with the standard grips and they have nice balance and feel.  My forward gripped Morningstar is tolerant of something my grip variations or release that makes it a little bit more consistent, just a little. I do not think the Robertsons would shoot nice at all without that deflexed grip, but as is I shoot them with the same rhythm and form as the ASLs, with just slight modifications in my grip on the bow. Which one would work best and is more forgiving of specific tendencies would vary with each person, it all depends on how you want a bow's specific refinements to fit you. One size does not fit all and that is a good thing.  I firmly believe that one should shoot bows that match their most natural form.  If one has a fairly fluid form, a bent arm and heals the grip they can shoot both R/D or Hill style bows with any grip style. For me personally, difference is grapefruits and oranges, I can hit a grapefruit with the standard grip, but I have a better chance of hitting the orange with the reverse grip, not much. But if a person has straight armed form and tends to release the arrow after 5 seconds to sometime later in the week, why beat yourself up over it, just shoot one of the many fine recurves available

Offline ChuckC

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Re: understanding reflex/deflex
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2014, 10:38:00 AM »
I am gonna make some guesses here.  I am not an engineer and although I make a few bows, I am not a bowyer.  Just thinking out loud.

On a straight bow, you flex a limb that starts at a certain angle (straight) and you end up bending it a certain amount at your draw.   Straight bows "tend" to have smaller brace height because of their design.  Although of course you have added stress to the limbs by bending them to brace, there is not a lot of pre-stress in the limb (getting it from relaxed, just to the point of being straight).

When you reflex the limbs, you are adding pre-stress or more stress into the limb.  In other words, in order to even get them straight, you are bending them.  Some have just a bit, some (look at horse bows and the older oriental bows) have a ton of built in pre-stress.

This might (depends on design and materials) be able to deliver much more snap, giving the possibility for a faster arrow.

By doing nothing else to a set of reflexed limbs  but adding a deflex into the handle section, it allows you to do the same as above, but it also moves the grip just a bit forward and allows for more brace height  and arm clearance.  I don't think it does much more than that.  

Handle placement may affect the feel and shootability of the bow but I don't think it adds speed, might even be a slight negative because of the increase in brace height.

All sorts of games can be played by adjusting the limb angles at the fades, being straight up and down, more forward or even rearward.

ChuckC

Offline snowplow

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Re: understanding reflex/deflex
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2014, 10:46:00 AM »
Thanks for the excellent information!

Offline Rob DiStefano

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Re: understanding reflex/deflex
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2014, 12:59:00 PM »
the 'd' in 'r/d' sets the handle forward, thus allowing for a higher brace height and shorter limbs for a longer draw length.  ever wonder why the 48" bear super magnum has such a huge deflex to the riser?  coupling a riser deflex and a limb reflex allows for a shorter overall longbow length for the same draw length that would require a longer hill style straight bow length.  the more the r/d gets pronounced, the shorter it will allow the limb lengths.  the shrew longbow is an example of very aggressive r/d design in a very compact engine.

     
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Offline Friend

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Re: understanding reflex/deflex
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2014, 10:44:00 PM »
Valued clarifications!!!
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Offline Zbone

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Re: understanding reflex/deflex
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2015, 08:35:00 AM »
If I remember correctly from Jay Massey's, Bowyer Craft, I believe he mentioned where deflex helps absorb hand shock...

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