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[BWallace10327]

[fujimo]

i concur- i have the same problem. i can repeatedly hit small targets at random ranges when stumping, but put me in front of a paper target- all goes to poop!

[McDave]

I think it really depends on the person. I have a good friend who really comes alive in tournaments when things are scored.  I have other good friends who could care less; they would really just rather get together in the morning and fling arrows.  I actually enjoy myself more with my friends who like to fling arrows.  But the self-imposed pressure I put on myself when things are scored intrigues me, and I wonder why I can't just relax and shoot like I do with my friends. I'm sure I would shoot a lot better if I could. I would really like to learn how to shoot in a tournament in the same relaxed way I shoot with my friends.  So far this has eluded me.

[Krex1010]

I don't know, I'm the opposite.  I perform my best when the pressure is on, anything athletic or shooting related and I do better with people around, and if it's a competition, I'll be at my best. I'm as laid back as a person could be but competition brings out intensity and focus I can't duplicate without that pressure.

I love to hunt with my bow. That requires a lot of practice. I found a game I can play using my bow (3D) that is great practice for hunting. I am a very competitve person and love the thrill of the game.

Bisch

[Izzy]

Don't believe anything you learn in college, a lot of it is hocus pocus, liberal BS. Ive been there and speak from experience. Just my experience from having learned so much more since graduating from college.  

[LongStick64]

For myself it comes down to focus, it is much easier for anyone to focus on a small spot, where as a large piece of paper helps to distract from the bullseye, which adds to tournament stress. That is part of the game, learning to isolate your focus and remove any distraction. The best shooters excel at this ability.

[Bowwild]

Interesting but in a survey among over 9,000 student archery at the 2013 NASP Nationals kids gave these three reasons why they enjoy archery:

1. Fun
2. Seeing their scores improve
3. Shooting with new archery friends

At the same event that year about 1,500 of these kids shot a 3D range for fun.  Then in 2014 we made it a competition. 2,004 kids shot when scores were kept. This year 12,000 will shoot the bullseye and nearly 5,000 will shoot the 3D.

I am 100% convinced that most kids love competition and I'm certain archery in the United States would not have grown from 7 million in 2001 to 19 million today without it.

[Wapiti Chaser]

The first time I shot in a "trophy shoot" for a prize I didn't know what a good or bad score was I just shot kept score and won ! Ever since then if I keep score I fall to pieces ! I over think or over try and fall apart.

[BWallace10327]

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[**DONOTDELETE**]

Being a psychology student, you are certainly aware of different personality traits and how these different traits effect thought processing.
Different people react to competition and shooting around other archers differently.

Archery is all about focus and repetition. Most successful competitors know when to concentrate on their shooting form, and when to concentrate on only the spot their arrows are going to hit....When it's time to compete they go "Into the zone"... They keep their practice and their competition separate, and rarely keep score when they are just flinging arrows.

Once a competitor hits a 3D trail, or steps up to the line while shooting dots. All of their focus goes on their target and nothing else. These guys are the ones that typically take home the gold.

Personally i shoot much better with a group of archers that are top notch competitors because i focus more on what i'm doing.  

When i get out on a 3D course with a bunch of guys just flinging arrows & not keeping score that are just having fun, i don't even think about score... I'm just flinging arrows myself. My shooting accuracy level suffers from it too because i never get "Into the Zone".

I envy guys that can go out and just fling arrows with reckless abandon cutting up and talking the whole time, and still shoot like a machine.... I just can't do it both ways myself. I do much better when the pressure is on, and i focus on my spot. This is true of hunting, or competing with others interested in shooting well.


Btw.... Brent, My daughter just got accepted for internship with an APA certified program just outside of Ventura Ca..... Its been a long path pursuing her PHD.

[McDave]

 This simply means that something loses its joy once an external reward is applied to a task or hobby which was initially driven by intrinsic value.

As Kirk mentions above, different people react differently to the same stimulation.  I think Brent's post above makes the over justification effect sound more like a law than a phenomenon that applies to some people, some of the time.  Most of us, probably including Brent, are aware of people who thrive on competition and scoring, as well as people who shy away from it because it truly does detract from the joy of the activity for them.

In my own case, while competition and scoring makes me feel uncomfortable and not perform my best, that very discomfort makes me seek it out, since I feel like the discomfort should be under my control, and it is a challenge to me to try and find out how to manage it better.  So I wouldn't say that competition and scoring takes the joy out of it for me, but instead adds another dimension to that joy: a challenge to be overcome.

In discussions with Rick Welch, he rates competition as being the least enjoyable of the four archery activities that he does: hunting, teaching, bow building, and competition, primarily because of the stress. But he still excels in it, and even though he rates it "least enjoyable" doesn't mean he dislikes it; it's just on the bottom rank of four things he enjoys doing.  I've tried to get him to reveal to me how he avoids letting the stress get to him, and I'm sure if he could tell me, he would.  The closest he's come is to say to ignore the score, and that he's able to put his mind in a place that the next shot doesn't matter any more to him than one he would shoot in his back yard. Wish I could do that!

[CRS]

To some archers the intrinsic joy is the competition.

I have a little different perspective.
I look at is as three different conflicts.

Man vs himself (self satisfaction)
Man vs nature (hunting) I much prefer man in nature myself
Man vs man (target archery or antler scores)

I have enough man vs man in my day job, I do not like to introduce it into my leisure activities.

[Scott Barr]

Kirk,

Congrats to your daughter and proud PaPa!  That is a quality university for her to be accepted and earn a PhD.

[Krex1010]

As someone who studied science and works in a scientific field I would warn you to never completely trust any scientific study! Ive seen more than my share of widely accepted facts turn out to be in error. If something is "likely to happen" than it is most certainly up for debate as to whether it will.
psychology is far better at explaining behavior than it is at predicting it.
I believe it was Socrates who said "the only true wisdom is knowing, that we know nothing"

[the rifleman]

I used to shoot offhand muzzleloading rifle in competition.  Lots of fun and winning came pretty easily.  Then in 2002 I took Top Gun for the year at the Columbus Club and after that point put so much pressure on myself that it was just not fun---my vision started going soon after (recently corrected with cataract surgery and even though I can once again see my sights I believe I'll continue with the longbow--best fun yet).  My mantra at the 3d shoots is "i'll never win a trophy", although I have messed up a couple of times and got a 2nd and 3rd--but they were giving certificates and medals away---so I can still say my mantra.  There is a level of pressure during any competition and although it doesn't turn me inside out like a whitetail inside of 20 yards it is, I believe a good test.  I have one rule---when it stops being fun I stop doing it---life is too short.

[Pheonixarcher]

Wow! This thread is very thought provoking. I appreciate these types of threads here, and this subject matter in general.

Everyone has posted some very valid points. I could comment on most of them, but for the sake of time and space, I'll just add a few of my own thoughts.

Firstly, I must say that comparing the behavior of a child, to that of a muture minded adult can be somewhat misleading. Our receptors for pleasure are clearly different. Also our reasons for performing certain tasks, fun or not, are also much different. I'm not completely disregarding the theory, but as with all things, the context of the situation must be considered.

As far as the three conflicts go, there is one common denominator, the "man". It always returns to the expectation of the person for themselves. In this instance, they know how well they can shoot, and they expect a certain level of accuracy and consistency. When they don't achieve what they know they are capable of, within reason, they become disappointed in themselves, and can start a downward spiral, where they think they are doing something wrong, and need to try and change or try something different. When in reality, they need to change their frame of mind.

Confidence is the key! Everyone makes mistakes, and makes a bad shot! Having confidence in your equipment and your ability is paramount in recovering from a less than ideal shot.

I mentioned mind set earlier. This is also a very important aspect in most endeavors. You must live and breathe this very moment in your life! This shot is the only shot! There were no shots, good or bad, no scores before this one. Everything must be new and fresh. Spontaneous! Like picking out a stump that you've never seen before. You cannot live in the past, or worry about the future. If you do, you'll miss this moment right here and now and miss the target (your concentration will not be 100% focused)!

Stage fright, or the fear of performing in front of people, is a whole other can of worms. It's silly in reality, to worry about what others might think about you. How in any way does that negatively affect you? Regardless, it is something that many people deal with.

Sorry if I got a little off topic and long winded. Great thread!

[Trond]

Originally posted by CRS:

Man vs himself (self satisfaction)
Man vs nature (hunting) I much prefer man in nature myself
Man vs man (target archery or antler scores)

I have enough man vs man in my day job, I do not like to introduce it into my leisure activities.

A big X2!
I am not the competitive kind of guy, and for me competitions is a sure way of killing the fun. But that's me.

My neighbor is a big sports fan, so naturally he drinks beer from a can. The other day they were badgering me.  They would break off the tab rings and stick them on a broken arrow and then say, "You should be able to shoot through this if you're any good."  I did get an arrow into the ring two out of ten tries from 12 yards, and a couple more I hit the ring."  But what really makes me mad, every arrow that connected to the tab was shot with a flubbed release.
If there would have been money involved, I would not have touched one of them.

[BWallace10327]

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