Arrow slap on side of shelf

[HeadLines]

I am brandnew in this forum and joined, because I liked the respectful and friendly way folks help each other out here!

After shooting a Bearpaw Slickstick last year, I wanted a Takedown this year. After shooting a Hoyt Tiburon and a Buffalo side by side for some hours, it ended up being the Buffalo, especially, since I got it with a pair of almost new F7 limbs, bringing it to 64". That is not unimportant for me, since I have a theoretical draw of 33". "Theoretical", because my neck won't turn anymore the way it did when I was young and the tip of my nose tends to get in the way of the string if I draw totally straight. So, I gladly give an inch of draw, move my bowhand over a tad and save my nose :-)

I don't hit as well with the Buffalo as I did with my 1-piece-stick, which bothers me, because I shelled out a lot more money for it. Recently I noticed that the powder coating has come off the back outside corner of the shelf. People told me that the Buffalo shoots a little more noisy, but now I realize it was the arrow making the noise, not the bow. And small wonder my groups are not as tight as I like!

I have set my nock points using bareshaft planing tests, but obviously, something is not right. If the tail 1/3 of the arrow would pass just a tad higher, it would have plenty of room in the window instead of hitting the side of the shelf.

But it is all a bit confusing: Tiller screws, nock point height, brace height and my shooting style - everything has an influence on the other, not to mention arrow spine and point weight (which in my case is a Goldtip Hunter 400 with a 125 Gr screw-in field tip). People told me "raise your BH"! Done that, won't change anything in regard to the shelf slap. The 400 spine seems ok for the close to 50# at my draw. 500 spine shafts go right and stick nock left - though they even slap the side of the shelf sometimes. My nock point sits about 3/8" above level. Next thing I will try is setting the tiller to 0 and raising the nock point further and back off with the BH again which currently is at 8 1/2". It might also have to do with my funky fingering: After catching myself finger-pinching the nock, I changed almost to a "2 under", meaning that the load of the string sits on my middle and ring finger while my index finger just comes along for the ride. That puts my draw point nearly level with my pressure point on the grip (somewhat high wrist). I tied a second nock point below to prevent the nock from sliding down upon release.

May be someone here knows the direction I have to go in and can save me a lot of time experimenting. I have already put several hundred arrows through the bow, trying to figure this out!

[slayer1]

Can you raise your point weight? Sounds to me like the arrow may be a little stiff. Maybe not enough to drop to a lower spine. The other thing you could do is try  a 400 spine arrow that is cut a little longer. Good luck with it. I had a Hoyt buffalo bow a few years ago and it shot really good.

[HeadLines]

Thanks, Slyer1!

Yes, I tried 180 gr Heavy Points, they send the unfletched shafts right, nock pointing left. Short 80 gr points send them left just a little, so I think that my spine may be o.k. Of course, a slap to the left on the tail of the arrow screws everything up and masks other problems. On shorter distances, bare shafts will stick left with the nock pointing left. Above 10 yrds I can see how they start to plane to the right and at 20 yrds the clearly will stick right with the nock left.

I think I need to somehow raise the tail of the arrow up a little, so that it passes inside the window of the riser, instead of outside of the shelf!

[AZ_Longbow]

I would try with those release fingers again. Try a bare shaft and varry the finger pressure, flex them and try lifting the arrow from the self then relax just enough to let it settle back into the rest before releasing. I switched bows and had the back end bouncing off the shelf, turns out it was my release fingers forcing the butt end down before release.

[Terry Green]

Braced height wrong and or nock point too LOW

[Bladepeek]

Just reading your description of your anchor and draw, I would guess you not drawing in line with the arrow. If you want some serious help, I would do a couple videos and post them on the Shooter's FORM forum. There are some coaches on there who can pick out several things which can be causing problems that you would probably never see.

[katman]

Since your basically shooting 2 under I would set tiller to zero and slowly raise nock point, sprinkle powder on the riser shelf and keep raising and see if it goes away. Most of my bows are even tiller and need 5/8" nock point 3 under. I have read some people need 3/4".

If all else fails build up the shelf with a narrow felt furniture pad and retune nock point, this will start the arrow a little higher. A stick on bear weather rest would also work for this.

My thoughts are you mat be pushing the arrow down with your index finger. May want to try three under with the powder. Just my thoughts you may want to try. Good luck.

[HeadLines]

Just in case someone else is experiencing the same problem, I have an update:

1. In order to check for shelf contact of the arrow, I found that plain white toothpaste works pretty good! I coated the side of my shelf with it and it splashed on my hand while it was still wet. Later it dried on, working even better.
2. Everybody claims that you get shelf slap bcs your arrrow is too stiff. I found a great video by Werner Beiter:  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TmtoEjjkgEA&feature=related.    He was one of the first who experimented with high speed cameras in archery. You can clearly see that timing is critical. If the tail of the arrow is still whipping back to the right as it is clearing the riser, it will slap it. If there is a tuning problem which also introduces a vertical oscillation in the shaft, the contact may well be at a different height than where it initially rested. Most likely, the problem is more pronounced the longer the shaft.
3. So, I went back to square one. Set my tiller to zero. Why? In order to shoot out by braced height without constantly having to change my nocking point. I changed my release from two under back to split. I just need to shoot with a stronger index finger to prevent the string from pushing it onto the top of the nock. That made a HUGE difference!
4. So now my arrows fly out without contacting the shelf, my toothpase stays put. And the bare shafts all plane right! Before, they got knocked left by the shelf which screwed everything up.

My next step will be to shorten a shaft by ½". With my draw I don't want to make it shorter than that, but I hope that will speed up the timing of the sideway flex so that the tail of the shaft is back on its way to the left as it clears the riser.

Oh, I forgot, I also glued on a new shelf pad, a spare that came with the Buffalo riser. That is pretty thick. Basicaly, I tuned my tiller and nocking point both as low as possible while maintaining good bareshaft flight. I get the feeling you can make those work against each other at the expense of arrow spee...

[Sirius Black]

I have a Hoyt Buffalo that shoots great for me, so I'll just share how I have it set-up.  I have the 58" bow, about 50# at my draw (28"). I'm using the D97 string, silencers, and shelf/side plate material that came with it. Split finger, 1/2" nock point, 1/4" positive tiller. Brace is 7 1/2". Arrow is GT Nugent 400, 29.5", 100gr insert, 100gr point. Bare shafts great, and bow is quiet, especially with the lower BH. I've just started a bridge program with it today, and want to be hunting with it this fall. Good luck with your Hoyt, I think you made a great choice.

[Sirius Black]

Forgot to add, WELCOME to Trad Gang!