Riddle me this.. (tuning question)

[nek4me]

I am also getting good flight from arrows that are way too stiff. I've been to the spine calculator multiple times and looked over several charts but haven't found anything that comes even remotely close to what I'm shooting. I'm using what I have available until getting far enough along to upgrade which happens to be a Black Bear recurve 45# @ 28 drawing to about 26 so getting 40# at most with 28.5" 2016's 150gr points and 5" feathers. Arrow weight is 500gr. String is B50 with nothing added shooting split and tab. When I replaced the 40yr old rest the window was marked "45" so not gaining anything from a higher actual weight. I'm happy with the flight but only have four arrows and always contemplating the next purchase but reluctant to try something else or get more 2016's when everything points to needing something with much less spine.

[CoachBGriff]

The key is "Do they fly well bare?  Do your broadheads fly with your field points?  Do you shoot them consistently?"

If you answer yes to those, then you've got the right shafts!

FWIW, I shoot 340's out of my 53ish @ 29 PCH Widow with 75 grain brass inserts and a 200 grain head.

[the rifleman]

Your bow wants what it wants--- good job trying different combos and being willing to go with what it tells you even if it goes against the charts, advice, etc.  I've always gotten good advice here and that is certainly a good place to start, but nothing can replace that first hand actual tuning and making adjustments needed for your bow and your form.

[Friend]

A bare shaft never delivers the coup de gras.

Even the famed master of bare shafting would not rely on his results until validated by broadhead testing and would often forgo bareshafting and tune his setups directly from a field tip fletched arrow to broadhead relationship.

My comment is not to abolish bareshafting as I often bareshaft tune out to 40 yards, conduct bareshaft only practice sessions and even utilize on an occasional 3D round. Particular Shot execution and shot execution variations as well as other factors may display skewed observations.

[Saguache]

Jake, I hate to disagree with you but most people that require a weaker spine have creeping static releases, a guy with good back tension and a dynamic release(what I'd call a good release)  requires a stiffer spined arrow IMO.

[Jakeemt]

Originally posted by Saguache:
Jake, I hate to disagree with you but most people that require a weaker spine have creeping static releases, a guy with good back tension and a dynamic release(what I'd call a good release)  requires a stiffer spined arrow IMO.

I can site several real world examples the physics makes sense in my mind but, I am not sure I possess the technical language to explain it but, I'll try.

First real world example- Easton's tuning guide. If you look in the arrow charts they provide they have one for compounds with a release. They make a note for finger shooters that you need to move up to the next bracket in arrow stiffness because of the increase paradox fingers introduces

Real world 2- The renowned archer Joel turner use a thumb release which he describes a inducing very little paradox. He notes that he had to drop a substantial amount of spine in order to get his arrows to fly correctly because of it.

My lame attempt at explaining why this is so-
when the bow string leaves you fingers it forces the string away from your bow and the arrow INTO the bow. The arrow then springs back again (and again and again several times to a lesser degree) around the riser. The harsher the release, the more violent the initial bend and following level of flexing, the stiffer the arrow needs to be to compensate. With a clean release the initial bend is much less making a heavily spined arrow show stiff as it had less lateral force exerted against it. And the recovery bounces it left(r handed shooter).

[Saguache]

Jake,I understand what you are saying. The point I was trying to make(admittedly poorly stated) was that with a soft release the initial force on the arrow is buffered by the slower acceleration of the string sliding off the fingers making the force on the arrow less abrupt and in practice applying less force to put the arrow into paradox. I've seen it both ways so what you are asserting could be valid  in some cases but I wouldn't think it would be the the case always. All I can say is that in my experience arrows shoot with a more dynamic(abrupt) release act like they are shot from a heavier bow while a softer release might make the arrow react like it was shot from a lighter draw weight. The thumb release is very linear and generally induces less paradox than fingers do, a thumb tab or ring acts much like a release aid so it makes sense that a lighter spine might be needed to get the arrow around the riser. I'm not saying that you are absolutely wrong, just that there might be another explanation for the problem the OP is having. By the way I shoot a 31".400 spine with 145 grains up front out of a 53# @29.5  bow and get slightly weak bare shafts and great broadhead flight for what its worth.

[Jakeemt]

I see your point man. I think it only enforces A) how tricky it can be to make any spine or form judgements over a forum and B) just how many different kinds of form there are! Good point.