Bare Shaft Tuning

[tdhartsell]

Hey guys, sorry if this is the wrong place to post. This is my first day apart of tradgang and my first post ever on a forum. My question is about bare shaft tuning as the subject states. Just need some advice and opinions. Got a new Toelke whip which is amazing. Got my shafts and went to tune. I was getting straight arrow flight but was getting nock high readings in flight and obviously on impact. I adjusted my nock point down until I got perfect flight at 20yds. So I fletched my arrows up. When shooting them while fletched, I have noticed that maybe two out of a dozen have some serious shelf contact and that audible, shelf slapping sound. Leaving visible strike marks on my shelf material. I know this is not good. Sometimes I will get porpoising as well. So obviously my nock point is a little low correct? Is this normal? To have perfect flight with bare shafts and then having to raise nock point to accommodate for feathers? I am shooting 5 inch, left wing helical, parabolic feathers. I shoot 3 under and for future reference: My whip is 66" @ 28.5 @ 55lbs. I am currently shooting Beman Centershot 400's at full length with a 125gr. field point. Sorry for the novel! Hope I was clear about my question! Thanks for any input!

[AZ_Longbow]

Welcome aboard. as for the arrows Adding weight to the back of the arrow will stiffen the spine did you add a wrap as well as feathers? . It is possible your form is off, you may be short drawing or collapsing at the shot. Number your arrows and if it always the same ones you may have a few bad arrows. If happens and sometimes you can rotate them to cockfeather in and fix it. If not I'd paper tune and get a fieldpoint test kit. Go up some weight and see what happens. Let's us know how it goes.

[tdhartsell]

Hmmm. I know I don't have perfect form but have never had a problem with arrows hitting the shelf. I've been shooting for about 3 years now consistently and the toelke is my fifth trad bow. What I don't get is that I've never bare shafted so well. I usually stop bare shafting at "good enough". They might as well have had fletchings on them. Perfectly straight. Groups were a little bigger than a softball at 20yds. That's 6 arrows a group for 5 sets. I usually can shoot about the same size groups with fletchings. My nock point on my other bows has generally been a little higher but I never got as good flight with bare shafts. I've turned the feathers as well but still get the same results no matter how they are positioned while nocked. Do you think it's just form flaws or too low of a nock point? Definitley going to experiment but just seeing what other shooters think first to try and save some time. They are wrapped by the way and like I said before I had no flight issues during tuning. I shot some old arrows through it when I first got it. Nock point was higher and I had no contact issues and great flight but bareshaft showed with new arrows nock high. That's why I adjusted down. Still getting good groups. Just getting occassional contact. Thanks for your response!

[Matt Green]

I've heard of the variance in spine shaft being off enough in a dozen to contribute to this.  Some will number their shafts (with sharpie) and see if its the same shaft every time.  as pointed out, a slight pluck or over/underdrawing (i.e. form inconsistency we are all subject to) can make this happen as well.  on a post a couple of years ago, the question was asked "Do you prefer your bare shafts fly a) slightly weak, b) slightly stiff or c) dead on.  MANY replied slightly weak b/c add the feathers adds a bit of weight and drag to the tail which should make the arrow 'behave' slightly more stiff when shot.  The difference would be small, but if you start out perfect with bare shafts and add feathers, then that could be in play in your set up.  Welcome the sight and there is a wealth of info on hear well beyond what I can offer.  I 'd expect a few more to chime in.
mg

[tdhartsell]

Thanks so much for your response! I will play around with it a little and see if I still get contact with a higher nock point. I've numbered my arrows as well but get contact randomly no matter which one it is haha! Hopefully it's not my arrows! Thank you again!

[Orion]

Might also check your brace height.  It might have fallen, especially on a new bow with a new string.  A low brace height will cause the shafts to bang off the riser and fish-tail.  So will a pluck.

[Bud B.]

If you have any 145gr points can you try those on the fletched arrows and see how it goes?

[the rifleman]

I can only tell you that my whips like a light spined (600) arrow almost full length w 200 grains up front.  One is 50@28. The other is 42@28 the 42 has the HS limbs.  400s w 125 point could be too stiff But if they hit straight for you l and r id call that part tuned and start raising nock point to eliminate arrow bouncing off shelf.  Best of luck.

[tdhartsell]

Hey guys! I have tried to reply twice now! Must be hitting the wrong button. Haha! I got everything worked out. My nock point was just a little low so I moved it up just a hair. Bout 1/8 of an inch. I even experimented with two nocking points today for the first time. It changed my flight pattern quiet a bit. I started shooting really low but my groups were super tight. So I re-did everything again. Top nock was at 5/8 at this point. I moved it down to 1/2 since I was shooting low and tied on the bottom nock again. I am shooting fantastic groups. Best and most consistent I have ever shot! Not sure what the second nock did but man I'm happy. Anybody know why accuracy would increase because of two nock points? I usually shoot pretty well and am generally above my competition in my area, but the group's I'm shooting now are absolutely lights out. Any thoughts on this?

[damascusdave]

You are overthinking the whole thing...if it works do not worry about why

DDave

[A.S.]

The 2nd nock point prevents your arrow nock from sliding down the string at the time of release.  I saw a slow mo video once that was very eye opening.

Make sure you leave just a little "wiggle" room for your nock between the two.

[tdhartsell]

Yeah thats what I heard... I'll check the video out shortly. I still may need to adjust down just a little now that I have two. I'm getting good flight but still shooting a tad low. It's fun tinkering and tuning that's why I love traditional archery so much. Sometimes I gotta remember, "If it ain't broke don't fix it". Then again: I find most traditional shooters perfectionists... Thanks guys for all your input. Again, I'm new here. What's the best way to search for information? Start a topic or search the forums? I tried searching this subject before I posted but it was gonna take a while for everything to scan through and load. What's the do's and dont's basically when trying to find specific info.? Thanks!

[tdhartsell]

You're definitely right Dave! Sorry for rambling on. I'm pretty OCD when it comes to this stuff!

[Pine]

Two nock points is especially nessasary when shooting 3 under .
Could also help if you have someone watch the arrow flight from behind you .
This is good because if you try to watch the the arrow , it can mess up how you are shooting and that can make bad arrow flight as well .