When to Quit?

[ChuckC]

I am certain that they would love to..... a total ban on hunting with guns, meaning there is now no reason at all to have one, so hand them all in.  We can give you a certificate for a pair of the latest Jordan jumper "tennis" shoes.

Eventually the deer herd will crash enough that existing lions will move away, starve, fight and kill each other for territory or all of the above and newborns won't have a chance.  Then, after that the deer herd will repopulate, until, of course, the lions catch back up and it happens all over again.

That is just the way it works the world over
CHuckC

[fireball31]

Stopping human hunters will have very little impact as long as the state of California allows the Mountain Lions to run rampant and not allow hunting them in an effective manner. (note: I love mountain lions and want them to be around, but I do not understand why big predators get a pass when it comes to management.)

[Roadkill]

I live in NW Reno and spend time on the two mountains that run the short distance to the CA line. Last week I was near the top just above snow line looking for deer.  A week before that I saw several herds of deer and a couple nice bucks.  On this trip I was casting about and found lion tracks not deer.  There are always lions up there and they do not respect states lines.  If they did, they would stay in CA,  as a lion tag is the only big game tag we can get over the counter.  I would take one as I always carry a varmit rifle up there for yotes.  The yotes have gotten very aggressive around here and havebattacked several dogs within sight of the owners, and after a short retreat, reattached the dogs.  I turkey hunted CA this month and saw plenty of deer, but they were a local herd in a protective situation.  My best CA buck came from Camp Pendleton.  Lion hunting was banned by some pressure groups, not so sure the game management folks agree.  If all species were given that level of equilibrium it might be fair, but folks hunt deer,but not lions.  Lions expand by numbers and by territority, but deer are not afforded the opportunity to do so.  I pity the CFG as they have many masters, but are funded by politicos, not sound management.JMO

[YosemiteSam]

Originally posted by fireball31:
 I do not understand why big predators get a pass when it comes to management.)

I'm guessing it's because they're not prey.  Management is, after all, only needed because we messed with the system nature already setup for us (lots of predators, humans among them).  Sort of like how doctors prescribe 2 drugs to deal with the side effects of another that was barely needed in the first place.  Personally, I can't see any reason to kill a lion & would be ecstatic to see one in the wild.  I don't begrudge others and their choices -- it's your life, not mine.  But I can only imagine how somebody who only marginally tolerates hunting feels when we kill animals with little or no food value.  That's definitely a harder sell in a state where we tend to over-intervene in each other's lives.

[YosemiteSam]

Originally posted by ChuckC:
I am certain that they would love to..... a total ban on hunting with guns, meaning there is now no reason at all to have one, so hand them all in.  We can give you a certificate for a pair of the latest Jordan jumper "tennis" shoes.

Eventually the deer herd will crash enough that existing lions will move away, starve, fight and kill each other for territory or all of the above and newborns won't have a chance.  Then, after that the deer herd will repopulate, until, of course, the lions catch back up and it happens all over again.

That is just the way it works the world over
CHuckC

Yes, that is a danger I fear as well.  Most of the US gutted the 2A long ago & it more symbolic than anything else.  CA takes it to a whole other level.  Even though the 2A has nothing to do with hunting, for some reason, that's about the only thing keeping it in place sometimes.

Regarding population crashes, yes, I agree.  I'm just curious as to what levels of deer or lions will cause such a crash or otherwise steady out.  Any biologists in the room?

[McDave]

Originally posted by YosemiteSam:
 

Originally posted by fireball31:
 I do not understand why big predators get a pass when it comes to management.)

I'm guessing it's because they're not prey.  Management is, after all, only needed because we messed with the system nature already setup for us (lots of predators, humans among them).  Sort of like how doctors prescribe 2 drugs to deal with the side effects of another that was barely needed in the first place.  Personally, I can't see any reason to kill a lion & would be ecstatic to see one in the wild.  I don't begrudge others and their choices -- it's your life, not mine.  But I can only imagine how somebody who only marginally tolerates hunting feels when we kill animals with little or no food value.  That's definitely a harder sell in a state where we tend to over-intervene in each other's lives. [/b]

"Somebody who only marginally tolerates hunting" generally feels fine when we kill animals with little or no food value, if there is a purpose for the killing that benefits them: for example, eradication of rats.  Lots of tree huggers like to backpack, and they would generally be fine with allowing hunting of mountain lions and keeping grizzly bears out of California, because that would make it safer to backpack.  Unfortunately, even though there are lots of backpackers, there are magnitudes more people whose idea of the outdoors is limited to Golden Gate Park or the San Diego zoo, and they see no problem with letting mountain lion and grizzly bear populations in the Sierras reach their natural limits.

I personally see no problem with managing wild deer and elk as a crop, the same as wild fish are managed as a crop.  Interestingly, few of the Californians whose wildlife exposure is limited to Golden Gate park or the San Diego zoo have any problem with managing wild fish as a crop, since they like to eat wild fish.  Since they don't eat venison, they feel free to make a moral issue about hunting deer and elk, feeling that those animals would be better fed to the mountain lions and wolves.

[Hud]

Predators, poaching, disease and loss of habitat are problems. A hard winter in the northern states can result in a big kill and it takes good habitat for deer and other animals to recover. States have less money to manage land and herds.
In WA years of wild fires have improved habitat in some areas, but it takes about five years for the land to recover. In CA with the continued lack of rain, it may be impacting wildlife.

Because it isn't always possible to pickup and move, you might consider a couple of options.

I would continue to hunt, and spend time looking for remote areas and/or private land.

It may be worth the time and effort to consider applying in other states.

Develop contacts with biologist and pick their brain.

Agriculture  chemicals and gmo crops are no friend to wildlife.  They spray stuff on beans that is killing off the song birds.   it can even be a health threat for anyone that tries go in those bean fields after the spraying is done.   We used to have wet waterways in every field and corn was full of foxtail.  When I ran a newspaper company, I found letters talking about the impassable boggy long grass conditions, that was Iowa, to people that were planing to load the wagons and head west.  The plains are suppose to be wet.   Tiles have wiped out the wet areas and there is nothing in the corn except corn.  i feel sorry for migrating hawks, because for mile after many miles there is nothing here for them to eat.  Sooner or later all life forms are negatively affected by development, agriculture , chemical pollution, and equipment uses and transportation advantage.    Before I had some financial set backs that prevented me from having enough cash on hand for a down payment to buy some land, that I figured would pay for itself with a clover/alfalfa crop and honey bee acres, i made a decision that it would be a longbow and ground hunting only hunting area.   If this sport is to continue, it needs restrictions. Farming is set up so that the global elite control how things get done and they don't care at all about real wildlife issues.  They do however, all agree that we should be paying taxes to the global warming bank in England, that started out because the coming ice age was imminent.  The 'green' advocates have done nothing for the environment.   I fear that the imbalances and damage in some areas is irreversible.