Beman Classic 400 overspined for my bow..help

[Alex.B]

1st time playing w/carbons: I had a couple of thin MFX 400 given to me by a friend shooting a 60# compound. I put a 200 gr tip on them, and they flew very good out of my 59# non center shot longbow. So I decided to buy a dozen classic 400, shot the same length(28.5" arrow Bop, I draw 27"-27.5) bare shafts next to the fletched ones at 15 yards, and they hit 8" to the right ( I'm LH). I switched to 250gr tips, 2-3" to the Right, but now I have an arrow over 600gr, and secondly, I can't shoot a 250gr. B-head. Can I salvage these or should I sell them and get less spine?
thanks
PS: only 6 shafts are cut, the others are still full length

[BTH]

If you can tune to 250 grains then you can make a 250 grain broadhead by using a 125 grain steel broadhead adapter and a 125 grain glue on broadhead (wensel woodsman, grizzly, etc). 3 Rivers sells the adapters. Shooting 600 grains or better out of your bow is actually a plus in my book. Gets you around 11 or so grains per pound. Are you using 100 grain brass HIT inserts or the stock inserts?

[JRY309]

I find that even if I buy the same spine carbon I don't cut them down until I bare shaft them.I draw 27" and I like my carbons 29-30" long seem to bareshaft better.I have bought some used carbons before at 28.5" and they would not fly no matter what I tried.They seemed to get worst the more front end weight I added.I would put those aside for now and work with the 6 full length ones you have left.Were the other MFX 400 the black ones and these are Classic's? Only cut the full length down a little at a time until to achieve what you are looking for.I figure what weight head I want to shoot and bareshaft from there,trim a little at a time.My setup on my 61#@27 Green Mt. bow came out at a Beman MFX Classic 400,29.5" BOP,100 gr. insert,125 gr. point,wraps,3-5" feathers total weight 560 grs..It's not a center shot bow so I have to play with the paradox.I wanted good flight with a 125 gr. head and wanted good total weight.Thats why I used the 100 gr. insert to get 225 grs. up front with a 125 gr. head,I have 18% FOC.This is what worked for me.

[Alex.B]

thanks John. I'll go ahead and start working with the full-length

[chuckbowhunter]

Hi Alex,

I do not believe you are overspined, if anything you are underspined with all that weight out front.  You may need to shoot an arrow 29-30" long but I would be shooting it with 125 gr. point.  Now I know my next statement will bring the rath of tradgang down on me but here is what I do and it works for me.  I don't barehaft shoot anything.  I start with fletched arrows and papershoot them just like I did for many years while shooting a compound.  I generally can get them to shoot a bullet hole or very close.  Then I go out and shoot them at 60 yards and watch the arrow flight for any wobble.  If they are flying perfect at 60 they will shoot out of my bow.  I and a bunch of my friends have played with bareshaft shooting until we are blue in the face and I find if they papershoot a bullet hole they will work out of any bow I have ever owned.  I shoot with a bunch of FITA shooters and some of them bareshaft shoot but most of them do it like I described above.  The 340 Axis and Beman MFX's I currently shoot are erratic (sometimes perfect, sometimes not) when I shoot them bare shaft.  I just don't find this a reliable method.

[katman]

Not going to blast you at all Chuck, but your form and release must be very good to consistently shoot using the paper tune method. Mine is not that good so I go with OL's bareshafting method and it works well for me. Struggled with paper tunning method and got fustrated. I need to shoot my fletched and unfletched tuned shafts thru paper to see how I and they do. Basically do what ever method gets you the intended result, a well tuned stable arow in flight.

Chuck, he said he was left handed so bare shafts grouping right for him would mean to stiff.

Alex, if you do not want to increase point weight a lot then the shorter arrows will be to stiff for your setup, start full length with the others with your point weight and trim 1/4" at a time from the nock end until they group, actually bareshaft should be slightly weak to allow for increase in spine upon fletching. You can probably sell the shorter ones on this site.

[AkDan]

Actually I personally think your from has to be even better to bareshaft tune of any kind, be it Ol's or just regular or bareshafting.  

If you show stiff, and you dont want to add weight to the broadhead end, you could add weight to the inside?  Might take something creative to pull it off though.   Be easier just to do it right from the get go, but then again if ya like to tinker like I do, making this work would be fun if nothing else.

[katman]

AkDan, If you shoot for groups with bare and fletched shafts why does your form have to be better? Seems shooting a group would average out the result. Where a slight change in release/form will alter the arrows flight using paper giving inconsistent results. IMO

Do you find adding weight inside the shaft changes the spine? I use the tubes with CX heritage and find no noticeable effect on spine.

It is fun to tinker and experimant isn't it.

[Alex.B]

Thanks Chuck, thanks everybody

[chuckbowhunter]

Alex,  I didn't take into consideration that you may already have cut your arrows down to 27 or your draw length.  If that is the case you are almost for sure overspined and in carbons they stiffen up pretty quick.  At this point I'm not sure you can add enought weight in the point to bring them around.

Sometime I would like to meet with people who tune using bareshaft.  Trying it on my own has produced inconsistent results.  Some of the best shooters in the country live in my area and they papershoot to tune, and I learned it from them.  One thing I'm sure of, whichever method you use your form has to be really good.

One other suggestion for you Alex.  I know you are LH as I am but sometimes it makes sense to let someone else shoot your bow and see if they get the same result.  If the bow tunes for someone else and not for you it is almost always form flaws.  At least that has been my experience.

[Turpentine]

Chuck,
I'm not about to blast you.  I've shot trad for 15 years and I've never bareshaft or paper tuned.  I generally take two or three arrows that experience tells me should be close for a particular setup.  I'll start with them on the long side (around 30 inches" even longer if carbon). I draw 28 1/4. I like my arrows a little long anyway, they just seem to tune better and be more forgiving.  Next, I put  a 145 grain broadhead on simply because this is the weight I like to shoot.  I then shoot at ten yards: close enough that if the combo is way off you still hit the target.  From here I weed out the obviously to stiff or weak. I can also make nock height adjustments for porpoising. Next I step back to 30 yds. and shoot again.  From this distance the broadhead will magnify any problems. Watch the flight of the arrow and check point of impact.  If arrow shows stiff, kicks tail right or impacts left,(i'm right handed) I may try a thinner strike plate, lower brace height or weaker spine.  If weak, tail left at launch or impacts right, try a shim behind or thicken the strike plate, possibly a lighter head if you prefer, or shorten the shaft a little.    For carbon, I will usually have a few heavier weight broadheads up to 250 to try as this is the easiest way to add weight up front.
One thing I rarely hear mentioned today is strike plate adjustment.  Most times, you can get an arrow that is close to tune perfectly by adjusting plate thickness.
I may be a dinosaur but this method has always worked for me. I normally shoot broadheads during practice also.   I have to laugh when I read about some of the bareshafting marathons that seem all to common these days.
Turpentine

[katman]

Good point on strike plate adjustment, I have found most to be thin already and can only increase the thickness or place something under to push the current one out if the arrow shows weak and I can not shorten the arrow any more.

Bareshafting does not have to be a marathon, like anything else the more you do it the quicker you get. Getting to shoot the bow and tune is part of the fun for a lot of us. Use whatever works best for you.

[Turpentine]

Katman,
On one of my longbows that I built, I am using a piece of site window felt.  It's only 1/32nds of an inch thick.  I like the calf hair strike plates the best.  I recently cut a piece off of one of my old three rivers calf hair string groove silencers for a shelf on my widow (very thin).  Some of the rug plates you get today can be quite thick.  The black widow rugs are almost 1/8.  I don't like them.  I like to start thin and shim as neccesary.
I know tuning can be part of the fun but I also believe that tuning can help to instill bad habits, especially peaking.  Fortunately for us in traditional archery there are many ways to skin the cat.  To each his own,  Whatever works, and all that other good stuff as long as the goal is reached.
Turpentine
Turpentine

[chuckbowhunter]

Turpentine,
Can't argue a bit with your method of tuning.  One of the top free styler I know does it just like you and he wins almost every time he shoots.  I just went back to trad and needed a place to start.  Now that I have a good idea on how to set up my bow I don't spend a lot of time tuning unless suddenly my arrow flight goes to heck.  Then it's usually something simple like nocking point moving.  I think papertuning or bare shafting is helpful if you are making a drastic change like onverting from aluminum to carbon and need to get the spine right.